ᐅ Omitting individual room control? Mechanical ventilation with heat recovery + gas heating, new build
Created on: 15 Mar 2019 08:16
K
Kabelmodem87
Hello,
I am currently planning the electrical and technical installations for our new build.
We are constructing with 42.5 Poroton bricks without insulation and have planned a gas heating system as well as a central controlled ventilation system with heat recovery. Almost the entire house will be tiled, except for the children’s room and bedroom.
Now the question about the usefulness of 10 room thermostats, which would cost me €1500 gross without any self-labor, including valves and wiring, and which I find not very attractive on the wall. Additionally, there is continuous power consumption per radiator.
What I have read so far is that a hydraulic balancing is important, a well-adjusted heating curve depending on the outside temperature, and a system with a low flow temperature; then the individual rooms can be perfectly adjusted through the flow in the radiators. Due to door gaps and the ventilation system, it will anyway be difficult to maintain significant temperature differences.
I do not see what comfort the electronic radiator regulators (ERR) would bring, since the system is slow to respond anyway and would only react hours later when there is solar heat gain.
With modern gas boilers, there should also be the option to control the flow temperature externally via smartphone, for example from vacation, and thus lower or raise the whole house temperature by 1-2 degrees before arriving home.
I know that ERR is initially mandatory and you have to apply for an exemption. Do you see a chance that this will be approved? Is the architect together with the heating installer the right contact for the application? I think our installer always installs the room thermostats without considering whether they make sense.
Has anyone experienced a similar situation or has any tips or advice?
Please refrain from comments like “new build costs €500,000 but no €1500 for room thermostats,” this is about the principle of not buying something unnecessary and unattractive.
I am currently planning the electrical and technical installations for our new build.
We are constructing with 42.5 Poroton bricks without insulation and have planned a gas heating system as well as a central controlled ventilation system with heat recovery. Almost the entire house will be tiled, except for the children’s room and bedroom.
Now the question about the usefulness of 10 room thermostats, which would cost me €1500 gross without any self-labor, including valves and wiring, and which I find not very attractive on the wall. Additionally, there is continuous power consumption per radiator.
What I have read so far is that a hydraulic balancing is important, a well-adjusted heating curve depending on the outside temperature, and a system with a low flow temperature; then the individual rooms can be perfectly adjusted through the flow in the radiators. Due to door gaps and the ventilation system, it will anyway be difficult to maintain significant temperature differences.
I do not see what comfort the electronic radiator regulators (ERR) would bring, since the system is slow to respond anyway and would only react hours later when there is solar heat gain.
With modern gas boilers, there should also be the option to control the flow temperature externally via smartphone, for example from vacation, and thus lower or raise the whole house temperature by 1-2 degrees before arriving home.
I know that ERR is initially mandatory and you have to apply for an exemption. Do you see a chance that this will be approved? Is the architect together with the heating installer the right contact for the application? I think our installer always installs the room thermostats without considering whether they make sense.
Has anyone experienced a similar situation or has any tips or advice?
Please refrain from comments like “new build costs €500,000 but no €1500 for room thermostats,” this is about the principle of not buying something unnecessary and unattractive.
K
Kabelmodem8715 Mar 2019 20:39KingSong schrieb:
Yes, I don’t quite understand that either. The outdoor temperature sensor is supposed to measure the actual outside temperature, ideally protected from wind and direct sunlight... Maybe it’s to account for solar gains? If I measure in the shade but sunlight shines through six huge glass windows all day, wouldn’t I have more heating input than necessary? Or does he mean on the south side but shaded?
K
Kabelmodem8715 Mar 2019 20:44wurmwichtel schrieb:
The boxes for the temperature control units (ERR) can also be wallpapered over, and you can instruct the electrician to group the control circuits on a single circuit breaker.
In our case, all thermostats are completely open because otherwise the heating cycles too frequently (now at 0°C (32°F) outside temperature, it runs twice for four hours each day instead of every two to three hours for less than 60 minutes, as one ERR opened and therefore lowered the return temperature too much).
BTW:
The payback period for a mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery is about 60 to 100 years.A mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery is not meant to be cost-effective but to significantly enhance living comfort, replacing manual airing even during absences, keeping pollen outside (my wife is allergic), and allowing longer sleep during morning shifts with windows and blinds closed to avoid waking up after five hours with 3000 ppm CO2 and headaches. And it does that, more effectively than solar thermal systems by far.
Musketier schrieb:
Why on the south side? That completely distorts things when the sun is shining on it.
With us, the sensor is on the north side.KingSong schrieb:
I don’t quite understand that either. The outdoor temperature sensor is supposed to measure the actual outside temperature, ideally shielded from wind and sun…Now let’s all reread what I wrote and think it over...
Outdoor temperature-controlled regulation, of course with a temperature sensor on the north side. Otherwise, it would be pointless.
AND
A thermostat on the south side, meaning in a room inside the house that faces south, as an additional control parameter.
A thermostat and a temperature sensor for outdoor temperature-controlled regulation are two fundamentally different things; that should be clear to everyone.
wurmwichtel schrieb:
The junction boxes of the outdoor temperature control can be wallpapered over, and the electrician can be asked to combine the control circuits on one circuit breaker.Then why drill the boxes at all? That is simply a waste of money.
wurmwichtel schrieb:
By the way:
The payback period of a mechanical ventilation system with heat recovery is about 60 to 100 years. Source?
W
wurmwichtel15 Mar 2019 22:17Drilling openings for electrical boxes to satisfy the electrician and the authorities.
The source isn't necessary – anyone can calculate it themselves.
The heating cost savings from a controlled home ventilation system amount to at most one-third of what you would save in a house built according to energy saving regulations. We currently pay about 55€ per month.
Such a system, however, costs more than 10,000€, meaning that it would take at least 545 months or 45.5 years to break even.
Additionally, operating and maintenance costs must be considered, which significantly extend the payback period.
Without any doubt, a controlled home ventilation system provides an invaluable advantage and comfort for allergy sufferers or residents in areas with heavy traffic!
For everyone else, it’s money thrown out the window.
The source isn't necessary – anyone can calculate it themselves.
The heating cost savings from a controlled home ventilation system amount to at most one-third of what you would save in a house built according to energy saving regulations. We currently pay about 55€ per month.
Such a system, however, costs more than 10,000€, meaning that it would take at least 545 months or 45.5 years to break even.
Additionally, operating and maintenance costs must be considered, which significantly extend the payback period.
Without any doubt, a controlled home ventilation system provides an invaluable advantage and comfort for allergy sufferers or residents in areas with heavy traffic!
For everyone else, it’s money thrown out the window.
K
Kabelmodem8715 Mar 2019 22:35wurmwichtel schrieb:
Having the electrical boxes installed to satisfy both the electrician and the authorities.
The power consumption does not need to be specified – anyone can calculate it themselves.
The heating cost savings from a controlled residential ventilation system amount to at most one-third of what you would save in a house built according to energy-saving regulations. We currently pay about 55 € per month.
However, such a system costs more than 10,000 € to install, meaning it would take at least 545 months or 45.5 years to break even.
In addition, operating and maintenance costs have to be considered, which significantly extend the payback period.
Without a doubt, a controlled ventilation system is an invaluable comfort and health benefit for allergy sufferers or residents living on busy roads!
For everyone else, that investment is money thrown out the window.If two people are working 9 hours until 4 pm, who ventilates the house then?
Have you ever tried sleeping in the summer during the morning in a dark, unventilated room with no air exchange? (3 shifts)
Waking up at 800 ppm instead of 2500–3000 ppm is a blessing for your health, not a waste of money.
O
Obstlerbaum15 Mar 2019 23:14Kabelmodem87 schrieb:
If both of you work 9-hour shifts until 4 pm, who ventilates the house then? And if the fridge is closed, do you also leave the light on inside? Just to reassure you: an empty house can be left standing for nine hours without mechanical ventilation without sustaining any lasting damage.
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