… building affordably.
I have been following this forum for a while. I am surprised that architects in Germany apparently have managed to keep their privileges. What do I mean by that?
Architects’ fees are calculated based on the "fee-eligible" construction costs. So, an architect primarily has an interest in building expensively, doesn’t he?
Years or decades ago, this system was also common in Switzerland. During periods of significant construction cost increases, the payment system for architects was revised. Today, no one in Switzerland pays an architect based on construction costs. Never.
I am not questioning the (justified) income of architects. It just seems outdated and questionable to define fees based on "construction costs" or "contract values": An architect should be compensated for their effort. If a wall costs twice as much, the architect definitely does not have twice the workload!
The legal situation in Germany is apparently clear. Even if billing is done retrospectively according to HOAI (the official fee structure for architects and engineers), the courts support this (viewing it differently than as "circumvention").
Or am I wrong? Am I on the wrong track?
I have been following this forum for a while. I am surprised that architects in Germany apparently have managed to keep their privileges. What do I mean by that?
Architects’ fees are calculated based on the "fee-eligible" construction costs. So, an architect primarily has an interest in building expensively, doesn’t he?
Years or decades ago, this system was also common in Switzerland. During periods of significant construction cost increases, the payment system for architects was revised. Today, no one in Switzerland pays an architect based on construction costs. Never.
I am not questioning the (justified) income of architects. It just seems outdated and questionable to define fees based on "construction costs" or "contract values": An architect should be compensated for their effort. If a wall costs twice as much, the architect definitely does not have twice the workload!
The legal situation in Germany is apparently clear. Even if billing is done retrospectively according to HOAI (the official fee structure for architects and engineers), the courts support this (viewing it differently than as "circumvention").
Or am I wrong? Am I on the wrong track?
B
Bau_Bambi27 Feb 2019 11:44Sorry, I forgot the details ;-).
Yes, it is actually a single-family house, a new build of about 150 sqm (1,615 sq ft) targeting KfW40 standard (expected). In terms of scope, all are comparable; for the third architect, service phase 5 is also included, but the construction supervision by an energy consultant is omitted. Offers 1 and 2 only cover up to service phase 4.
These are indeed fixed prices (as stated in the offers).
We will select the craftsmen ourselves. We want to keep the architects involved only until the building permit / planning permission is granted — after that, we will take over.
Yes, it is actually a single-family house, a new build of about 150 sqm (1,615 sq ft) targeting KfW40 standard (expected). In terms of scope, all are comparable; for the third architect, service phase 5 is also included, but the construction supervision by an energy consultant is omitted. Offers 1 and 2 only cover up to service phase 4.
These are indeed fixed prices (as stated in the offers).
We will select the craftsmen ourselves. We want to keep the architects involved only until the building permit / planning permission is granted — after that, we will take over.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
I find the price for the ground investigation incredibly low. Where I live, two boreholes don’t cost less than €1,000 gross. Three holes are immediately €1,500. I think you misunderstood that. The €200 was just the fee the architect charged for forwarding the relevant plans and data to the geologist. It seems no drilling had actually taken place yet.
This also seems to vary a lot by region. Around here, an architect wouldn’t even look at you twice for something like that. It’s not uncommon for one to say they won’t build for less than a certain budget. From what I hear locally, most architects hardly schedule an appointment unless you already have the land secured.
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Bau_Bambi27 Feb 2019 11:54@caddar Actually – okay, then I’ll withdraw my comment since it doesn’t make sense ;-).
I’m just surprised by the price difference between the architects. We haven’t accepted any offer yet, since apparently there are cheaper options. Whether cheaper is ultimately better, we will find out through the conversations that take place beforehand.
@Lumpi_LE The services are actually listed according to the HOAI phases, so planning and cost estimation, design with cost calculation, approval—as it should be. And that applies to all three. There is nothing listed about fees outside the price, so no hourly rates. Understandably, as a layperson, it’s suspicious when such large price differences occur for what appears to be the same services.
I’m just surprised by the price difference between the architects. We haven’t accepted any offer yet, since apparently there are cheaper options. Whether cheaper is ultimately better, we will find out through the conversations that take place beforehand.
@Lumpi_LE The services are actually listed according to the HOAI phases, so planning and cost estimation, design with cost calculation, approval—as it should be. And that applies to all three. There is nothing listed about fees outside the price, so no hourly rates. Understandably, as a layperson, it’s suspicious when such large price differences occur for what appears to be the same services.
Bau_Bambi schrieb:
It’s understandable that as a layperson you become skeptical when such large price variations occur for seemingly identical services.This could be because the architects each estimated differently how much of the existing plans they could incorporate into your design.
I am a complete layperson in this regard, but I would carefully review the contract to see exactly what is specified as the "subject of the contract" and its scope. For example, whether a room schedule is included, or if it is based on a standard house design, and so on. Because I find it hard to imagine a fully custom design according to HOAI with 2-3 preliminary drafts and all refinement stages in this context.
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