ᐅ Finding Tiles from Other Manufacturers / Selecting Finishes with the Developer
Created on: 31 May 2011 11:10
P
plastikjoe
Hello everyone,
I’m new here and happy that there is a forum like this!
I’m currently selecting finishes for my house, specifically the tiles. The developer has recommended two large tile specialty stores for choosing the tiles—what I would call the top of the line! We visited the first one and liked some tiles, but some prices were above the developer’s budget limit.
For the living room, we picked Italian tiles called Ciliegio, priced at 58 € per square meter (about $58 per square yard). The price is steep, and the budget is almost used up! Are there similar tiles with this type of wood grain pattern from other manufacturers that you know of?
Does anyone know if it’s possible to choose a tile store on your own through the developer, one that fits your budget? For example, you could buy tiles from hardware stores, which are much cheaper and look similar.
From my perspective, the tile selection process is a bit strange because we are given a maximum price limit, but then the prices offered at the tile specialty stores are typical retail prices. The developer’s tiler then orders the selected tiles and probably pays a lot less since they buy in large quantities. He keeps the discount, and we have to buy the expensive tiles from the specialist store. Is this normal?
I hope I was able to explain this clearly.
Thank you
I’m new here and happy that there is a forum like this!
I’m currently selecting finishes for my house, specifically the tiles. The developer has recommended two large tile specialty stores for choosing the tiles—what I would call the top of the line! We visited the first one and liked some tiles, but some prices were above the developer’s budget limit.
For the living room, we picked Italian tiles called Ciliegio, priced at 58 € per square meter (about $58 per square yard). The price is steep, and the budget is almost used up! Are there similar tiles with this type of wood grain pattern from other manufacturers that you know of?
Does anyone know if it’s possible to choose a tile store on your own through the developer, one that fits your budget? For example, you could buy tiles from hardware stores, which are much cheaper and look similar.
From my perspective, the tile selection process is a bit strange because we are given a maximum price limit, but then the prices offered at the tile specialty stores are typical retail prices. The developer’s tiler then orders the selected tiles and probably pays a lot less since they buy in large quantities. He keeps the discount, and we have to buy the expensive tiles from the specialist store. Is this normal?
I hope I was able to explain this clearly.
Thank you
B
Bauexperte21 Sep 2011 11:39Hello,
It is certainly not stated anywhere in your building contract/order that you can have tiles or any other trade carried out by an external company. Electrical work, however, is always possible and cannot be excluded.
You chose a general contractor because you liked their offer; in my opinion, it was cheaper than comparable bids. Now you want to push the price down again at a point you don’t understand; you can never quite understand homeowners.
Take the tiling work out, try to assign it more cheaply elsewhere, or—better yet—do it yourself as a self-contracted trade. Only then will you really save money, and the troublesome issue of warranty claims, which fills entire courtrooms, will also be off the table.
Kind regards
Muko schrieb:
Does anyone have experience with this topic? Is it correct that the construction company is allowed to act this way? After all, nowhere does it say that I MUST get tiles and sanitary fixtures from the selection companies.
It is certainly not stated anywhere in your building contract/order that you can have tiles or any other trade carried out by an external company. Electrical work, however, is always possible and cannot be excluded.
You chose a general contractor because you liked their offer; in my opinion, it was cheaper than comparable bids. Now you want to push the price down again at a point you don’t understand; you can never quite understand homeowners.
Take the tiling work out, try to assign it more cheaply elsewhere, or—better yet—do it yourself as a self-contracted trade. Only then will you really save money, and the troublesome issue of warranty claims, which fills entire courtrooms, will also be off the table.
Kind regards
H
Häuslebauer4022 Sep 2011 22:07Construction expert, this always depends on the offer. If the individual prices for the various trades included in the house price according to the building contract (BB) are not listed separately in advance—which is rarely the case—then the builder (BU) can practically credit the removal of individual trades afterwards at their discretion (as long as it is not against good morals).
B
Bauexperte23 Sep 2011 10:19Hello,
I also do not provide individual trade prices, as that would be equivalent to revealing my cost calculations. Instead, I specifically describe—sticking to the topic—up to which material price tiles can be purchased. It is also quite common for clients to request an offer for, for example, tiles throughout the entire ground floor beyond what is included in the building specifications. If the additional offer does not include a price, how can the client decide if these services are worth the quoted price? And if they purchase this extra service but cancel after signing the contract, the exact price will be credited back to them.
With this approach, I am in good company; there are more reputable providers than this forum sometimes seems to reflect.
Best regards
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
Bauexperte, it always depends on the offer. If for services that are included in the house price according to the building specifications (BB), individual prices for the different trades are not separately listed in advance—which is rarely the case—then the general contractor (BU) can reasonably credit the removal of individual trades afterward (unless it is against good morals).
I also do not provide individual trade prices, as that would be equivalent to revealing my cost calculations. Instead, I specifically describe—sticking to the topic—up to which material price tiles can be purchased. It is also quite common for clients to request an offer for, for example, tiles throughout the entire ground floor beyond what is included in the building specifications. If the additional offer does not include a price, how can the client decide if these services are worth the quoted price? And if they purchase this extra service but cancel after signing the contract, the exact price will be credited back to them.
With this approach, I am in good company; there are more reputable providers than this forum sometimes seems to reflect.
Best regards
B
Bauexperte25 Sep 2011 10:50Hello home builders,
Why should I react that way?
No, it’s not due to the “lack of transparency” you criticize – as always, it’s a mix of many factors. The local and global market economy responds to individual demand; everywhere, there are “those like these.” Some companies do not disclose their cost calculations (by the way, the entire automotive industry doesn’t either), some focus on selling individual trades, and some have adopted this unfortunate “stinginess is cool” mentality.
Of course that could happen; from what you write in the forum, you don’t seem naive – so please don’t start with that!
You’re mixing apples and oranges; Perlemann already gave an example related to your comment. When I buy a new car, regardless of brand, neither the manufacturer nor the dealer breaks down how much the headlights cost or the labor share for the headlights, right? But if I bring my car in for service, it’s different. The service shop is required to itemize the costs clearly and allow me as a customer to verify the individual entries on the invoice.
...It’s no different in house building. Reputable providers offer the potential buyer a quote for a portion of the house, built according to the DIN standards valid at the time of purchase. They also explain to their customer, via their scope of work, which materials (for example, Gira or Busch-Jaeger for electrical, tile material costs, etc.) are included in their quote. If the customer buys additional services, they’ll receive an offer price for those, which they can accept or decline. If the customer cancels after buying, that offer price will be credited back.
That’s how the entire global economy works; this “trade secret” is key to their survival as long as they operate by commercial principles in the market. Ask any clothing company how much labor costs contribute to their T-shirts, suits, or sweaters, or Apple what the speaker in their iPhone costs.
Unfortunately, this claim belongs to the “rumor” category, sorry. In court, no building company has to disclose its calculation; rather, if necessary, they must justify how much actual work – expressed in currency – they have performed, because only those services will be recognized by the court if the legal conditions are met; if they’re lucky. In recent years, German courts tend to encourage settlements, probably because too many claimants think they have to sue – which overloads the courts.
This is why many of us and our competitors no longer pursue legal action. It doesn’t make sense to throw good money after bad; on the other hand, this encourages the mentality of some people to keep taking a little more from the pie. Look around this forum, and you’ll have to agree with me; the latest “sunny disposition” example is the question why a user has to pay their architect. Right, clearly the architect’s work doesn’t need to be paid for … This also answers your unspoken question about the “black sheep”: “Like attracts like” – the global market is prepared for that too.
Kind regards
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
Please don’t take this personally, Bauexperte, but I don’t understand why building companies avoid providing transparent billing like the devil avoids holy water. This lack of transparency is what partly contributes to the industry’s sometimes poor reputation.
Why should I react that way?
No, it’s not due to the “lack of transparency” you criticize – as always, it’s a mix of many factors. The local and global market economy responds to individual demand; everywhere, there are “those like these.” Some companies do not disclose their cost calculations (by the way, the entire automotive industry doesn’t either), some focus on selling individual trades, and some have adopted this unfortunate “stinginess is cool” mentality.
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
Why do you share your calculations when you list the prices of individual trades? That still doesn’t reveal your purchasing prices.
Of course that could happen; from what you write in the forum, you don’t seem naive – so please don’t start with that!
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
I work in the automotive industry and when I issue an invoice, it must be transparent and verifiable. I can’t just write “did this and that = this much.”
You’re mixing apples and oranges; Perlemann already gave an example related to your comment. When I buy a new car, regardless of brand, neither the manufacturer nor the dealer breaks down how much the headlights cost or the labor share for the headlights, right? But if I bring my car in for service, it’s different. The service shop is required to itemize the costs clearly and allow me as a customer to verify the individual entries on the invoice.
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
With building companies, it’s like this: house type XY = price. Services according to the scope of work. That’s it.
...It’s no different in house building. Reputable providers offer the potential buyer a quote for a portion of the house, built according to the DIN standards valid at the time of purchase. They also explain to their customer, via their scope of work, which materials (for example, Gira or Busch-Jaeger for electrical, tile material costs, etc.) are included in their quote. If the customer buys additional services, they’ll receive an offer price for those, which they can accept or decline. If the customer cancels after buying, that offer price will be credited back.
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
But how they calculate that price is kept deliberately quiet.
That’s how the entire global economy works; this “trade secret” is key to their survival as long as they operate by commercial principles in the market. Ask any clothing company how much labor costs contribute to their T-shirts, suits, or sweaters, or Apple what the speaker in their iPhone costs.
Häuslebauer40 schrieb:
At least as long as no legal dispute exists, where the price formation then has to be substantiated.
Unfortunately, this claim belongs to the “rumor” category, sorry. In court, no building company has to disclose its calculation; rather, if necessary, they must justify how much actual work – expressed in currency – they have performed, because only those services will be recognized by the court if the legal conditions are met; if they’re lucky. In recent years, German courts tend to encourage settlements, probably because too many claimants think they have to sue – which overloads the courts.
This is why many of us and our competitors no longer pursue legal action. It doesn’t make sense to throw good money after bad; on the other hand, this encourages the mentality of some people to keep taking a little more from the pie. Look around this forum, and you’ll have to agree with me; the latest “sunny disposition” example is the question why a user has to pay their architect. Right, clearly the architect’s work doesn’t need to be paid for … This also answers your unspoken question about the “black sheep”: “Like attracts like” – the global market is prepared for that too.
Kind regards
B
Bauexperte25 Sep 2011 10:58Hello Perlenmann,
If nothing fundamental has changed in your supplier’s company in recent years, you should be credited for the tiles not installed and be able to choose higher-quality tiles or a different installation method, or, depending on the overall proportion of tiles in the house, even both.
Kind regards
Perlenmann schrieb:
But I will also have the same issue with tiles soon. I’m curious to see how it goes. We negotiated down to €20/m² (about $22/ft²) and in return, all bathrooms are fully tiled up to the ceiling. However, we only want the wet areas tiled and the rest with different tiles. I’m interested to see how that works out.
If nothing fundamental has changed in your supplier’s company in recent years, you should be credited for the tiles not installed and be able to choose higher-quality tiles or a different installation method, or, depending on the overall proportion of tiles in the house, even both.
Kind regards
H
Häuslebauer4025 Sep 2011 22:41Building expert, I think we are talking past each other.
When I say I would like to know the costs of the individual trades for the house, I don’t mean that I want to know your profit margins on each brick, tile, or craftsman. Instead, I want to know the value of each individual service.
What’s the problem with saying, for example, that the house costs 250,000 EUR and that a certain portion of that is allocated to:
- Foundation slab
- Shell construction
- Screed
- Interior finishing
- Tiling
- Plumbing
- etc.
Do you understand what I mean? I am not interested in purchase prices but in what the trade is ultimately worth.
That way, it would be clear from the start what credit I would get if I wanted to carry out a specific trade under self-performance (EGL).
For example, if I want to do the tiling myself and it was originally estimated at 3,000 EUR for my house, I would receive that amount as credit. But since this kind of breakdown does not exist and the trade is included in the fixed price, once it comes to self-performance, the negotiation starts. The builder might then estimate the trade for less than it is actually worth, and disputes are pre-programmed.
By the way, in my previous comparison, I never mentioned car sales. Rather, I was talking about the execution of craft work on a vehicle.
When I bring a car for service and additional work, I can’t just get a fixed price; I must know what the individual labor and materials cost, essentially what each service is worth.
Since building a house is undeniably also a craft service, there should be parallels here.
To refer to your example with P&C: of course, they won’t tell me how the price of a T-shirt is composed, and I’m not interested in that.
But if I buy a complete men’s outfit, they will tell me the prices of the pants, jacket, and shirt.
If I buy a complete house, nobody tells me the costs of the shell construction, doors, or windows—again, not the purchase prices, but the value of the completed work.
The more I deal with this topic, the clearer it becomes why this is.
Because otherwise, many house offers would be ruled out in advance, and a quick calculation would already reveal that the payment schedule often outlined in the construction contract is disadvantageous for the client—even though all builders and prefab manufacturers are well aware that they must generally provide services in advance according to the Building Code and General Contractor Regulations (where applicable).
With non-transparent fixed-price offers and corresponding payment schedules, it is easy to turn the tables and make the client pay in advance without them realizing it.
Don’t get me wrong, building expert. I’m not saying everyone does this, but during the planning phase of building, I have read enough offers, construction contracts, and payment schedules—both from smaller and well-known providers—and some of them really troubled me. The payment schedule often doesn’t seem to align with the construction progress or the value of work performed. When you ask questions like how much a shell construction is worth, or if 60% of the house price seems a bit much, suddenly there’s a lot of evasiveness and attempts to wiggle out like an eel...
When I say I would like to know the costs of the individual trades for the house, I don’t mean that I want to know your profit margins on each brick, tile, or craftsman. Instead, I want to know the value of each individual service.
What’s the problem with saying, for example, that the house costs 250,000 EUR and that a certain portion of that is allocated to:
- Foundation slab
- Shell construction
- Screed
- Interior finishing
- Tiling
- Plumbing
- etc.
Do you understand what I mean? I am not interested in purchase prices but in what the trade is ultimately worth.
That way, it would be clear from the start what credit I would get if I wanted to carry out a specific trade under self-performance (EGL).
For example, if I want to do the tiling myself and it was originally estimated at 3,000 EUR for my house, I would receive that amount as credit. But since this kind of breakdown does not exist and the trade is included in the fixed price, once it comes to self-performance, the negotiation starts. The builder might then estimate the trade for less than it is actually worth, and disputes are pre-programmed.
By the way, in my previous comparison, I never mentioned car sales. Rather, I was talking about the execution of craft work on a vehicle.
When I bring a car for service and additional work, I can’t just get a fixed price; I must know what the individual labor and materials cost, essentially what each service is worth.
Since building a house is undeniably also a craft service, there should be parallels here.
To refer to your example with P&C: of course, they won’t tell me how the price of a T-shirt is composed, and I’m not interested in that.
But if I buy a complete men’s outfit, they will tell me the prices of the pants, jacket, and shirt.
If I buy a complete house, nobody tells me the costs of the shell construction, doors, or windows—again, not the purchase prices, but the value of the completed work.
The more I deal with this topic, the clearer it becomes why this is.
Because otherwise, many house offers would be ruled out in advance, and a quick calculation would already reveal that the payment schedule often outlined in the construction contract is disadvantageous for the client—even though all builders and prefab manufacturers are well aware that they must generally provide services in advance according to the Building Code and General Contractor Regulations (where applicable).
With non-transparent fixed-price offers and corresponding payment schedules, it is easy to turn the tables and make the client pay in advance without them realizing it.
Don’t get me wrong, building expert. I’m not saying everyone does this, but during the planning phase of building, I have read enough offers, construction contracts, and payment schedules—both from smaller and well-known providers—and some of them really troubled me. The payment schedule often doesn’t seem to align with the construction progress or the value of work performed. When you ask questions like how much a shell construction is worth, or if 60% of the house price seems a bit much, suddenly there’s a lot of evasiveness and attempts to wiggle out like an eel...
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