Hello forum,
I have a question regarding the permitted use of screws for fastening a substructure of a curtain wall:
Situation: The base is a relatively loosely built rubble stone wall made of sandstone. On this, as the substructure, a vertical battens spaced 60cm (24 inches) apart made of KVH spruce 60x120mm (the 60mm (2.4 inches) side against the wall). On the outside of the battens, 60mm (2.4 inches) Steico wood fiber insulation boards are stapled. The resulting cavities are blown with Steico cellulose (wood fibers). On top of that, there will be another vertical batten and an outer horizontal rhombus cladding. The facade is 3 meters (10 feet) high and extends over three walls measuring 7m (23 feet), 11m (36 feet), and 4m (13 feet).
The construction of such insulation must meet structural and safety requirements.
What legal requirements exist for the screws and anchors used to fix the vertical battens for the substructure into the rubble stone wall? I keep hearing different opinions on this matter.
Does the anchor need approval for sandstone? Or must the entire fastening system be officially approved for this specific situation? Or can any type be used as long as it holds?
A logical explanation I received from a Fischer employee was that a system approved for this situation, comprising both anchor and screw, _must_ be used because only then are the data necessary for calculation available to determine and, if necessary, prove the durability of the construction.
A carpenter said you could use whatever you want and don’t have to care about approvals or such.
How does this actually work? What legal regulations apply and which requirements must be followed during implementation? Is there anywhere this can be looked up?
Thank you for your answers!
I have a question regarding the permitted use of screws for fastening a substructure of a curtain wall:
Situation: The base is a relatively loosely built rubble stone wall made of sandstone. On this, as the substructure, a vertical battens spaced 60cm (24 inches) apart made of KVH spruce 60x120mm (the 60mm (2.4 inches) side against the wall). On the outside of the battens, 60mm (2.4 inches) Steico wood fiber insulation boards are stapled. The resulting cavities are blown with Steico cellulose (wood fibers). On top of that, there will be another vertical batten and an outer horizontal rhombus cladding. The facade is 3 meters (10 feet) high and extends over three walls measuring 7m (23 feet), 11m (36 feet), and 4m (13 feet).
The construction of such insulation must meet structural and safety requirements.
What legal requirements exist for the screws and anchors used to fix the vertical battens for the substructure into the rubble stone wall? I keep hearing different opinions on this matter.
Does the anchor need approval for sandstone? Or must the entire fastening system be officially approved for this specific situation? Or can any type be used as long as it holds?
A logical explanation I received from a Fischer employee was that a system approved for this situation, comprising both anchor and screw, _must_ be used because only then are the data necessary for calculation available to determine and, if necessary, prove the durability of the construction.
A carpenter said you could use whatever you want and don’t have to care about approvals or such.
How does this actually work? What legal regulations apply and which requirements must be followed during implementation? Is there anywhere this can be looked up?
Thank you for your answers!
From my point of view, Fischer is not entirely wrong with that statement. For example, what use is a concrete anchor in sandstone? The carpenter’s comment is something like: "We've always done it that way and it has held up!"
However, when I read above that it is a rubble stone wall, then it won’t have much to do with a standard wall according to the DIN norm from an anchor test. There is also the option of performing pull-out tests on-site by the anchor manufacturer, who then recommends a specific type of anchor (maximum load and/or maximum anchor spacing). In my opinion, this is the best solution for unknown wall types.
However, when I read above that it is a rubble stone wall, then it won’t have much to do with a standard wall according to the DIN norm from an anchor test. There is also the option of performing pull-out tests on-site by the anchor manufacturer, who then recommends a specific type of anchor (maximum load and/or maximum anchor spacing). In my opinion, this is the best solution for unknown wall types.
Hello hanse987,
No, actually it is even worse, the carpenter was doing this for the first time.
[
That’s exactly what I meant. Through the pull-out test you get concrete values for load capacity, which then allows you to determine the number of anchors and screws required.
But regardless of whether this makes sense or not: What MUST be done, meaning which guidelines/laws/regulations must the contractor comply with? Is it mandatory to perform these calculations or not?
It is always said "according to the state of the art" or "approved by building authorities," etc., but what exactly applies?
But where are the regulations that must be followed? That should actually be the building code or building regulations. Which part of these applies here, or can anything be done as long as it holds during the warranty period?
Can someone provide a link or something where this can be looked up, or—since I think links are forbidden here—a tip on how to google for it?
Thank you![/QUOTE]
hanse987 schrieb:
"We have always done it this way, and it has held!"
No, actually it is even worse, the carpenter was doing this for the first time.
[
hanse987 schrieb:
There is also the option of pull-out tests by the anchor manufacturer on site, and based on that they recommend a type of anchor (maximum load and/or maximum anchor spacing). In my opinion, this is the best solution for unknown wall types.
That’s exactly what I meant. Through the pull-out test you get concrete values for load capacity, which then allows you to determine the number of anchors and screws required.
But regardless of whether this makes sense or not: What MUST be done, meaning which guidelines/laws/regulations must the contractor comply with? Is it mandatory to perform these calculations or not?
It is always said "according to the state of the art" or "approved by building authorities," etc., but what exactly applies?
But where are the regulations that must be followed? That should actually be the building code or building regulations. Which part of these applies here, or can anything be done as long as it holds during the warranty period?
Can someone provide a link or something where this can be looked up, or—since I think links are forbidden here—a tip on how to google for it?
Thank you![/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, I cannot provide an expert answer, but try searching Google for "when do I need an approved anchor." One of the second or third results is a list from Fischer outlining the use of anchors for different applications.
Now, my amateur opinion: Could someone be injured if the curtain wall falls? Just reading about 60x120mm (2.4x4.7 inches) battens makes me say yes. In that case, from my perspective, an anchor suitable for the specific application must be used. This can only be one that is certified, or if there is no certification for the substrate, one that is selected based on an on-site test.
Now, my amateur opinion: Could someone be injured if the curtain wall falls? Just reading about 60x120mm (2.4x4.7 inches) battens makes me say yes. In that case, from my perspective, an anchor suitable for the specific application must be used. This can only be one that is certified, or if there is no certification for the substrate, one that is selected based on an on-site test.
hanse987 schrieb:
Now my layman's opinion. Could someone get hurt if the curtain wall falls? Yes, definitely. One side measures 11 x 3 meters (36 x 10 feet). A balcony is planned to be added above on the south side.
What I find odd is that nobody seems to know where to find information about this—nobody can even refer to my RAW. It must be regulated by law somehow.
Similar topics