ᐅ Is this wall insulation setup suitable for a KfW 70 energy-efficiency house?
Created on: 8 Jul 2011 21:25
L
Livestrong
The plan is for a KfW 70 house. The plan includes 17.5cm (7 inch) Ytong blocks with 16cm (6 inch) Styrofoam insulation. The windows are triple-glazed. Is this okay?
B
Bauexperte10 Jul 2011 12:18Hello €uro,
I have already written this here – probably a thousand times – not all general contractors / turnkey contractors / architects / sellers are bad actors; maybe in the future you could at least add the term “low-cost providers” to statements like this?
That puts “Livestrong” in good company – most homebuilders don’t decide beyond the quoted price; how should they know when building is not their daily task, and the world wide web offers thousands of competent “national (homebuilding) trainers”? Is cheap cool? Sure, we find these money pits again – once created – in weekly reality shows (sometimes even with compensation), but then, in your opinion, only the bad general contractors / turnkey contractors / architects / sellers are to blame. Far from it – there are bad actors on both sides, that’s how the game works 🙁
Just pointing out the problem is not enough, €uro, you need to explain a bit more – so far I assume your goal is also to make life harder for the “bad apples.” Sarcasm alone won’t get us there, not even close 😉
Best regards
€uro schrieb:
That’s already the first problem with this project. “It has to be quick” is the best recipe for a money pit. An old sales trick. Often, it’s only on paper. In reality, such properties sometimes don’t even meet the minimum energy-saving regulations.
I have already written this here – probably a thousand times – not all general contractors / turnkey contractors / architects / sellers are bad actors; maybe in the future you could at least add the term “low-cost providers” to statements like this?
€uro schrieb:
Then I say right now, from the way this all started, it’s going to be total rubbish.
That puts “Livestrong” in good company – most homebuilders don’t decide beyond the quoted price; how should they know when building is not their daily task, and the world wide web offers thousands of competent “national (homebuilding) trainers”? Is cheap cool? Sure, we find these money pits again – once created – in weekly reality shows (sometimes even with compensation), but then, in your opinion, only the bad general contractors / turnkey contractors / architects / sellers are to blame. Far from it – there are bad actors on both sides, that’s how the game works 🙁
Just pointing out the problem is not enough, €uro, you need to explain a bit more – so far I assume your goal is also to make life harder for the “bad apples.” Sarcasm alone won’t get us there, not even close 😉
Best regards
Hello Building Expert,
I recommend relating the listed price to the final energy consumption (forecast under building-specific conditions).
This quickly separates the wheat from the chaff. 😉 Strangely, so-called "premium providers" also stand out negatively here.
It is human nature to want to get as much as possible for as little money. That does not make the builder a "bad actor"!
Naive, inexperienced, trusting—yes, but not bad!
As is well known, there are many paths to Rome. A direct statement is sometimes more helpful than a lengthy treatise with cautious circumlocutions. 😉
Best regards
Bauexpert schrieb:I have never claimed that either.
.. not all general contractors/construction managers/architects/sellers are bad actors; ....
Bauexpert schrieb:Certainly, the risks for someone building a house that what was supposed to be a "bargain" becomes a money pit are much higher with "low-cost providers." However, a higher sale price, i.e. not a "low-cost provider," is neither a quality indicator nor a safety criterion for the client!
perhaps in the future you could at least add the term "low-cost providers" to statements like these?
I recommend relating the listed price to the final energy consumption (forecast under building-specific conditions).
This quickly separates the wheat from the chaff. 😉 Strangely, so-called "premium providers" also stand out negatively here.
Bauexpert schrieb:Calling an inexperienced homebuilder a bad actor is really inappropriate!
..– but then in your opinion only the bad general contractors/construction managers/architects/sellers are to blame. Far from it – bad actors exist on both sides, otherwise the game wouldn’t work 🙁
It is human nature to want to get as much as possible for as little money. That does not make the builder a "bad actor"!
Naive, inexperienced, trusting—yes, but not bad!
Bauexpert schrieb:
...It is not enough just to point out the problem ....We won’t reach this goal with sarcasm, not even scratch it ...
As is well known, there are many paths to Rome. A direct statement is sometimes more helpful than a lengthy treatise with cautious circumlocutions. 😉
Best regards
L
Livestrong10 Jul 2011 13:48There is no question of cheap or poor quality. The contractor has an excellent reputation, and everyone is impressed by his expertise. He learned his trade from the ground up. The trust is strong. The statement was that 12.5cm (5 inches) insulation is sufficient, but 16cm (6.3 inches) is reasonable. More than that might be overdoing it. There was never any pressure from the salesperson, quite the opposite. If a buyer appears, I will be informed. I just want to start soon. Today, I met friends at the gym who confirmed that the construction is fine. They built the same way years ago but with only 10cm (4 inches) insulation. The company has been building for 25 years, and I haven’t found any negative feedback from other homeowners. Thanks, Bauexperte, for the private message—I agree with you on that. I have trust and have meetings next week where we will finalize everything. One of the future neighbors had the building contract reviewed, and their lawyer found everything to be in order.
Livestrong schrieb:
I met some friends at the gym today who also confirmed that the construction is okay. They built the same way years ago, only with 10cm (4 inches) insulation.Then everything is fine after all 😉
Regards
B
Bauexperte10 Jul 2011 14:39Hello,
Because this is also not expressed – always one side is blamed – many questionable providers on the market have it very easy.
A few examples, representative of many from my daily experience:
At the beginning of last year, we negotiated with a prospect from Cologne – a freelancer at a private broadcaster – about a small single-family house. He repeatedly argued that his other supplier was far cheaper than our offer. When I asked why he hadn’t already signed with them, he smiled. My personal opinion: he wanted our quality at the low-cost provider’s price. When he named the other supplier, I couldn’t believe my ears, since the mentioned company was on the brink of insolvency. So we asked him to obtain a credit report through his bank and then get back to me if he still wanted to negotiate. I was already surprised before, but now I was speechless; his exact words: “I don’t need a report anymore, I know the company’s situation. If they don’t build my house, I’ll take them to TV ….”
We are currently building a semi-detached house in a district of Cologne – our clients were the first and thus set the pace. The potential second building partner did not take long to appear, and we met with him for a consultation. In the conversation, it quickly became clear that he would not be able to handle this construction project financially – not even with substantial personal funds – at the planned scale, so we tried to calmly explain the actual situation to him. However, he insisted on his wish, so we withdrew. Another, presumably cheaper provider saw his chance and secured the contract. The result: the building was constructed right up to the boundary – insulation of the shared wall of his semi-detached house is no longer possible, the setback to the street was undershot, and much more. The worst part is that our clients will have an ongoing construction site next to them in the long run because the other homebuyer simply lacks the means to complete the project in the mid-term.
About three weeks ago, we lost a project because the prospects listened to their good friend – a retired architect. The subject was a cube-shaped house; due to the construction (setback floor, roof terrace, etc.) and city requirements regarding soundproofing, our offer was $30,000 (approx.) over the architect’s estimate. Therefore, no further negotiations took place, and the prospect signed with a local builder whose offer was within her estimate. As chance would have it, I occasionally deal with the excavator contracted by that builder. He told me that the builder, architect, and now the homebuyer are at odds because our offer was actually accurate…
…and I haven’t even started talking about the times when I built myself… to be continued…
For your information: The word “pöse” comes from the film “Life of Brian” and describes a type of person solely focused on their own advantage; I assumed you would know the term.
It is legitimate to want to get the most value for one’s money; that corresponds to the laws of the market economy. However, it is by no means the case that all homebuyers who appear on TV/newspapers/in court have not received sufficient warnings in advance; sometimes simply curbing the “being cheap is cool” phenomenon would have been enough. I occasionally work with an expert who is also involved with TV productions in Cologne and also professionally with a court-appointed appraiser. If you don’t believe me, I can gladly provide a contact…
Kind regards
€uro schrieb:
Calling an inexperienced homebuyer a bad guy, I find really inappropriate! It is human nature to want to get as much as possible for as little money as possible. That alone does not make the homebuyer a “bad” guy! Naive, inexperienced, yes, but not bad!
Because this is also not expressed – always one side is blamed – many questionable providers on the market have it very easy.
A few examples, representative of many from my daily experience:
At the beginning of last year, we negotiated with a prospect from Cologne – a freelancer at a private broadcaster – about a small single-family house. He repeatedly argued that his other supplier was far cheaper than our offer. When I asked why he hadn’t already signed with them, he smiled. My personal opinion: he wanted our quality at the low-cost provider’s price. When he named the other supplier, I couldn’t believe my ears, since the mentioned company was on the brink of insolvency. So we asked him to obtain a credit report through his bank and then get back to me if he still wanted to negotiate. I was already surprised before, but now I was speechless; his exact words: “I don’t need a report anymore, I know the company’s situation. If they don’t build my house, I’ll take them to TV ….”
We are currently building a semi-detached house in a district of Cologne – our clients were the first and thus set the pace. The potential second building partner did not take long to appear, and we met with him for a consultation. In the conversation, it quickly became clear that he would not be able to handle this construction project financially – not even with substantial personal funds – at the planned scale, so we tried to calmly explain the actual situation to him. However, he insisted on his wish, so we withdrew. Another, presumably cheaper provider saw his chance and secured the contract. The result: the building was constructed right up to the boundary – insulation of the shared wall of his semi-detached house is no longer possible, the setback to the street was undershot, and much more. The worst part is that our clients will have an ongoing construction site next to them in the long run because the other homebuyer simply lacks the means to complete the project in the mid-term.
About three weeks ago, we lost a project because the prospects listened to their good friend – a retired architect. The subject was a cube-shaped house; due to the construction (setback floor, roof terrace, etc.) and city requirements regarding soundproofing, our offer was $30,000 (approx.) over the architect’s estimate. Therefore, no further negotiations took place, and the prospect signed with a local builder whose offer was within her estimate. As chance would have it, I occasionally deal with the excavator contracted by that builder. He told me that the builder, architect, and now the homebuyer are at odds because our offer was actually accurate…
…and I haven’t even started talking about the times when I built myself… to be continued…
€uro schrieb:
It is human nature to want to get as much as possible for as little money as possible. That alone does not make the homebuyer a “bad” guy! Naive, inexperienced, yes, but not bad!
For your information: The word “pöse” comes from the film “Life of Brian” and describes a type of person solely focused on their own advantage; I assumed you would know the term.
It is legitimate to want to get the most value for one’s money; that corresponds to the laws of the market economy. However, it is by no means the case that all homebuyers who appear on TV/newspapers/in court have not received sufficient warnings in advance; sometimes simply curbing the “being cheap is cool” phenomenon would have been enough. I occasionally work with an expert who is also involved with TV productions in Cologne and also professionally with a court-appointed appraiser. If you don’t believe me, I can gladly provide a contact…
Kind regards
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