ᐅ Use an Air Source Heat Pump or Gas and Solar?

Created on: 11 Jul 2012 19:15
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gigi
Hello,

We are starting to get really frustrated... every builder tells us something different...

We want to build a 130sqm (1,399 sq ft) KfW 70 house with the living room facing south, and we are unsure whether to choose gas or an air source heat pump. Some providers, at almost the same price level, offer us air source heat pumps and claim that the annual costs are significantly (30%) lower compared to gas, while others doubt this.

We understand that insulation with gas/solar systems is usually better because an air source heat pump boosts efficiency more towards KfW 70 standards compared to gas/solar, which might argue in favor of gas. An air source heat pump might fail somewhat sooner, and in case of problems, you can usually get quick and competent local support with gas. With air source heat pumps, there could be more difficulties. Additionally, the noise of air source heat pumps (in our case about 3 meters (10 feet) from the neighbor) is not insignificant. Some say that sooner or later, everyone ends up having issues with neighbors for this reason.

We are interested in air source heat pumps with storage tanks from these providers: Vaillant, Mitsubishi Zubadan, and Rotex.

What we are really curious about is the annual cost for heating and hot water with both systems.

We live near Kassel.

What should we choose, and what would be cost-effective TODAY? What is your opinion on Vaillant?

Regards
Gigi
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Nordlys
30 Mar 2018 22:34
too rough. There are no free-standing approvals in SH for house construction. You always need a permit. If there is a development plan and you build according to it without any special deviations, then it is a simplified permit that is granted within four weeks or even faster.

to hotze. Confirm and add that you assume this solution complies with the energy saving regulations. Done.
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ruppsn
30 Mar 2018 23:20
Nordlys schrieb:
to rupp. There is no exemption from permits in Schleswig-Holstein for house construction. You always have a permit. If there is a zoning plan and you build accordingly without exceptions, then it is a simplified permit that is granted within four weeks or even faster.

Ahh, interesting, I really didn’t know that. But what is the difference to a permit exemption then? It basically says the same thing: if there is a zoning plan and you follow it, the municipality (not the building or district office) approves it, and you are allowed to build. However, if someone objects and requests a review from the authority, the construction site must stop (the permit exemption has a suspensive effect). With a simplified permit from the building authority, it takes about 8 to 12 weeks (currently closer to 12), costs 0.1% of the construction costs as a permit fee, but it has no suspensive effect. That means no one can simply order a construction stop just because they feel like it. A full building permit application (nobody uses this anymore here if there is a zoning plan) takes SIGNIFICANTLY longer (sometimes 8 months or more) and involves a different fee structure.
So, in your region in Schleswig-Holstein, is the choice only between a simplified permit (issued by whom?) or a full permit? If yes, when could the situation with the two gentlemen you mentioned occur, when your permit has been granted without suspensive effect? Hmm, I still don’t quite understand it [emoji51]
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Nordlys
31 Mar 2018 10:05
The approval is always granted by the district building authority, or by the municipal authority in the case of the four independent cities. The process typically involves submitting the application through the local building department to the district office (this is practical when there is a zoning plan; the municipal staff member then stamps the application, confirming compliance with the zoning plan, which speeds up the process at the district level). In my experience, the main difference lies in the length of the questionnaire for the application. A standard building permit can also be approved within 4–6 weeks if all documents are complete. Regarding costs: for a property valued at 160,000 euros, I paid 800 euros to the district.

In Schleswig-Holstein, I am generally not allowed to build much without permission—maybe a garden shed or a carport. For these, I often do not even need to notify or report it.

Regarding a case of construction halt: a neighbor doubts whether everything is compliant. He claims we built too high and added too much sand. He says he no longer has sunlight and reports this to the building authority. The authority contacts the builder, in practice, the general contractor. What do you do then? One person protests loudly! The general contractor insists nothing has changed compared to the approved permit. Nothing? Nothing! OK. The staff member from the office then goes out to the site very promptly; if everything is fine, the complainant is rejected. But if this is not the case and we lied, then the situation becomes serious and a stop order follows. This happened, for example, with an older man who believed his house should be on a hill fit for a general. They forced him to remove the expensive soil he had added and to comply with the rules that the existing terrain must not be altered and that foundations including terraces must be aligned to the original ground level.
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Alex85
31 Mar 2018 10:46
The difference lies primarily in the point of contact. In building permit procedures, the authority is responsible for reviewing and officially approving the plans. If someone wants to dispute it, they are challenging the permit and therefore the authority.
In cases of exemption certificates, it is only confirmed that no permit is required. If someone wants to dispute it, the route is a private legal claim against the builder.

Karsten, you should consider yourself lucky if the process is that quick for you. The state building code of North Rhine-Westphalia (NRW) sets a deadline of 6 weeks for simplified building permits, which can be extended to 12 weeks.
None of the new neighbors had received their decision in under 12 weeks. It was usually around 14 weeks, which is why no one dares to dispute it...
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ruppsn
31 Mar 2018 11:03
Nordlys schrieb:
This happened here, for example, with a grandfather who thought his house belonged on a military hill.

Hmm, has he by any chance moved to the Franconia region? Because we have a similar case here (the one with the building stop) – only he had already poured the foundation slab overnight without permission. Now everything has been standing there since September, including rotting materials and a construction crane...

You can’t just start building here either, maybe that was misunderstood. The builder wants to build, the initial planning is submitted by the architect or general contractor to the local building authority for a spot check: parking spaces considered, nominal setback distances correct, open space design and drainage plans included. Then they either reject it or approve it. If approved, it goes to the next municipal council meeting and they formally authorize it. Then construction can begin. Time required: 2 to 4 weeks (depending on the council schedule), cost: 40€.

It gets trickier with slight deviations from the zoning plan, for example, if the setback to public space is slightly undershot in a small area or a different roof color is desired. Then the council must approve it – this is called an isolated exemption from the zoning plan regulations. In our case, they’re very picky about roof colors; even the building authority can’t explain the council’s mood swings on that.

The main difference here is really the impact on construction activities: If it’s a dispensation, someone can call the state authority as the permit authority on a whim and they have to investigate the case, during which time the site must stop work. With a building permit, they check the site, but construction activities continue. In our “military hill” case, he simply miscalculated the setback distances and designated too few parking spaces. For example, he didn’t measure the setbacks from the natural ground level but from the top of an embankment – which makes a big difference with a 1.80m (5 ft 11 in) embankment. In my opinion, the local building authority should have noticed this, but they say they lack the specialized staff and only perform a superficial check. My advice: neighbors be vigilant and review the plans at the building authority if something seems odd. In this case it was good, otherwise he would have built too large a structure a second time (!) right next door. Once it’s built, dismantling is deemed disproportionate... that’s how facts can be established...

Okay, back to the topic [emoji51]
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R.Hotzenplotz
10 Apr 2018 21:35
The calculations have now been completed. It looks like the decision is finally to stick with gas and solar.

The provisional energy performance certificate indicates a final energy demand of 35.8 kWh and a primary energy demand of 42.1 kWh. The required value according to the Energy Saving Ordinance is 47.2 kWh.

The solar share is listed here as 16.1%.

This results in a demand of:
a) Gas: 12,862 kWh
b) Auxiliary energy (electricity): 1,501 kWh

Regarding the equipment:
Gas condensing boiler with 17 kW (sizing to be determined by the HVAC engineer)

Hot water production (demand 5,009 kWh):
40% from the solar system
60% from the gas heating

Otherwise, it repeatedly states "sizing to be determined by the HVAC engineer."