Hello everyone,
I have been reading here for a while and would now like to make my first post. Of course, it is a request for help, or rather, I would like to ask for some advice.
My wife and I want to build a single-family house on our own plot of land. After extensive research and searching online, we have narrowed down the choice of builder to two options. On one hand, we have a fixed-price offer from a general contractor who would build the desired house for 295,000€ (approximately 295,000 euros). On the other hand, we have hired an architect who will tender the individual trades for us and also supervise the construction.
After obtaining quotes for each trade, the total cost for the same house with the same specifications as the general contractor’s offer would be 312,000€ (approximately 312,000 euros). However, this 312,000€ is not a fixed price like the general contractor’s offer (although additional costs would likely be added there as well). The architect believes that he can negotiate these costs down significantly, so the total could end up close to the general contractor’s price.
We personally feel good about both options, perhaps slightly better about the architect. If we went with the general contractor, we would also want to hire an independent building inspector, which would be an additional cost. This would not be necessary with the architect, as he would oversee the trades hired.
So far so good, but unfortunately, our budget would not cover the 312,000€, so we would have to hope that the price can indeed be reduced. We have set a maximum limit of 300,000€ (approximately 300,000 euros), with an additional 25,000€ (approximately 25,000 euros) reserved as a final contingency, which will certainly be used for various unforeseen expenses.
Now to the actual question. Do you think it is realistic that the architect’s estimated price can still be lowered, or is this just a sales tactic to win the contract over the general contractor? What are your thoughts on comparing general contractors and architects in this context? The architect claims that the warranty period he provides is longer than the general contractor’s. According to him, he is liable for 30 years, while a general contractor’s liability might only be 5 years. Setting aside the question of whether the architect will still be financially solvent, whether his company still exists, or whether he is still alive in 30 years…
Since we are complete beginners, although we have been planning and trying to inform ourselves for quite some time, I would be very grateful for an active discussion and any advice!
I have been reading here for a while and would now like to make my first post. Of course, it is a request for help, or rather, I would like to ask for some advice.
My wife and I want to build a single-family house on our own plot of land. After extensive research and searching online, we have narrowed down the choice of builder to two options. On one hand, we have a fixed-price offer from a general contractor who would build the desired house for 295,000€ (approximately 295,000 euros). On the other hand, we have hired an architect who will tender the individual trades for us and also supervise the construction.
After obtaining quotes for each trade, the total cost for the same house with the same specifications as the general contractor’s offer would be 312,000€ (approximately 312,000 euros). However, this 312,000€ is not a fixed price like the general contractor’s offer (although additional costs would likely be added there as well). The architect believes that he can negotiate these costs down significantly, so the total could end up close to the general contractor’s price.
We personally feel good about both options, perhaps slightly better about the architect. If we went with the general contractor, we would also want to hire an independent building inspector, which would be an additional cost. This would not be necessary with the architect, as he would oversee the trades hired.
So far so good, but unfortunately, our budget would not cover the 312,000€, so we would have to hope that the price can indeed be reduced. We have set a maximum limit of 300,000€ (approximately 300,000 euros), with an additional 25,000€ (approximately 25,000 euros) reserved as a final contingency, which will certainly be used for various unforeseen expenses.
Now to the actual question. Do you think it is realistic that the architect’s estimated price can still be lowered, or is this just a sales tactic to win the contract over the general contractor? What are your thoughts on comparing general contractors and architects in this context? The architect claims that the warranty period he provides is longer than the general contractor’s. According to him, he is liable for 30 years, while a general contractor’s liability might only be 5 years. Setting aside the question of whether the architect will still be financially solvent, whether his company still exists, or whether he is still alive in 30 years…
Since we are complete beginners, although we have been planning and trying to inform ourselves for quite some time, I would be very grateful for an active discussion and any advice!
Hello,
there is definitely a chance that the architect can build the house at an even lower cost.
Are the quotes truly comparable? Do both offers include exactly the same scope of work? The same quality of building materials?
And if you plan to hire an independent building inspector anyway when contracting the developer, that just shows you don’t really trust this developer. And trust is very important when building.
Regards
there is definitely a chance that the architect can build the house at an even lower cost.
Are the quotes truly comparable? Do both offers include exactly the same scope of work? The same quality of building materials?
And if you plan to hire an independent building inspector anyway when contracting the developer, that just shows you don’t really trust this developer. And trust is very important when building.
Regards
Yes, the data is the same for both, meaning the architect requested the tradespeople for the individual trades based on the same information from the developer’s construction scope description.
Well, we do trust the developer, but we still want to hire an independent expert to make sure everything is done properly, as we cannot always assess this ourselves as laypersons.
Well, we do trust the developer, but we still want to hire an independent expert to make sure everything is done properly, as we cannot always assess this ourselves as laypersons.
Orschel schrieb:
....Since we are complete amateurs, even though we have been planning and trying to gather information for quite some time, I would really appreciate an active discussion and advice! This project is not a self-build, but a general contractor (GC) project – which is legally a significant difference!
Building with a GC is usually the more cost-effective option. However, this applies only with independent supervision! This starts with reviewing the planning documents, especially the proof of compliance with the energy saving regulations (KfW).
The biggest shortcomings, however, occur in the building services engineering. Here, it is advisable to rely on an independent, external design and sizing of the system, otherwise there is a risk of ending up with a money pit!
Typical construction site supervision usually focuses solely on the construction trades, and there is often a lack of technical expertise regarding building services.
The additional costs for external building services planning and construction supervision are negligible compared to a free design by an architect. It should also be considered that the architect’s cost estimate may turn out to be up to 30% higher in the end!
Best regards
B
Bauexperte22 Mar 2011 09:32Hello,
First, a few words about warranty periods:
Warranty for any architect: According to § 634a of the German Civil Code (BGB): 5 years for planning of buildings, 2 years for planning of other works. When does the warranty period begin? Upon acceptance of the architect’s service, which may be up to 5 years after the warranty period of the main contractor (construction company, CC) has ended (service phase 9, § 3 para. 4 HOAI), totaling at least 10 and up to 30 years. However, in recent years, the architects’ chambers and courts have aimed to reduce this long period significantly, which is already possible in case of partial acceptance before phase 9 HOAI, from which the client cannot withdraw.
Warranty for the construction company (CC) according to German Civil Code: period according to § 634a BGB: 5 years for buildings, 2 years for other works, with suspension of limitation only through legal actions, negotiations, or acknowledgment.
Warranty for CC according to the German Construction Contract Procedures (VOB/B): § 13 no. 4 VOB/B: 4 years for buildings, 2 years for others (contractual extension possible). Defect notification: new 2-year period; after defect remedy acceptance, a new 2-year period. Definitive limitation: 30 years.
In principle, it is possible that the architect can still reduce prices through skillful negotiation; it may also remain at the stated price; likewise exceeding €312,000 is possible. This depends on the architect’s environment—his relationship with the subcontractors consulted—and your requirements. Ultimately, your decision should not be based solely on price but should reflect the best balance between “ADDED” value, “TOTAL” costs, and the necessary “TRUST.”
I would be interested to know whether, if you choose the architect, you also plan to engage an independent construction supervision, or only if you contract a construction company?
Kind regards
Orschel schrieb:
…On one hand, we have a fixed-price offer from a general contractor who would build the desired house for €295,000, and we have also hired an architect… After obtaining quotes for each trade, the same house with the same specifications as the general contractor would cost us €312,000… Do you think it’s realistic that the architect’s estimated price can still be negotiated down, or is it just a tactic to win the contract instead of the general contractor? What are your thoughts on comparing general contractors and architects? The warranty period with the architect is apparently longer than with the general contractor…
First, a few words about warranty periods:
Warranty for any architect: According to § 634a of the German Civil Code (BGB): 5 years for planning of buildings, 2 years for planning of other works. When does the warranty period begin? Upon acceptance of the architect’s service, which may be up to 5 years after the warranty period of the main contractor (construction company, CC) has ended (service phase 9, § 3 para. 4 HOAI), totaling at least 10 and up to 30 years. However, in recent years, the architects’ chambers and courts have aimed to reduce this long period significantly, which is already possible in case of partial acceptance before phase 9 HOAI, from which the client cannot withdraw.
Warranty for the construction company (CC) according to German Civil Code: period according to § 634a BGB: 5 years for buildings, 2 years for other works, with suspension of limitation only through legal actions, negotiations, or acknowledgment.
Warranty for CC according to the German Construction Contract Procedures (VOB/B): § 13 no. 4 VOB/B: 4 years for buildings, 2 years for others (contractual extension possible). Defect notification: new 2-year period; after defect remedy acceptance, a new 2-year period. Definitive limitation: 30 years.
In principle, it is possible that the architect can still reduce prices through skillful negotiation; it may also remain at the stated price; likewise exceeding €312,000 is possible. This depends on the architect’s environment—his relationship with the subcontractors consulted—and your requirements. Ultimately, your decision should not be based solely on price but should reflect the best balance between “ADDED” value, “TOTAL” costs, and the necessary “TRUST.”
I would be interested to know whether, if you choose the architect, you also plan to engage an independent construction supervision, or only if you contract a construction company?
Kind regards
Thanks in advance for the answers. So, it’s not just about the price for us, but as the building expert mentioned, about the overall package. I want to clarify as much as possible in advance whether I am paying more for the same service from one party than from the other... Of course, trust also plays a role in this. I have to admit, I feel a bit more comfortable with the architect, which is a mix of gut feeling and how the conversations went. As a layperson, it’s unfortunately not always easy to tell if someone is giving me false information or not... That’s why I wanted to ask if the architect might be able to negotiate a better price. A friend of mine confirmed that this was the case for him as well. Naturally, the construction will end up being somewhat more expensive anyway, which is why we have planned a financial buffer… This will certainly happen with both the architect and the developer.
Regarding an independent inspector in architect-led construction: so far, we have assumed that the project manager from the developer works primarily for the benefit of their company and therefore might not necessarily want to identify minor defects (which may or may not be true). If we build with the architect, it seems more likely that they are obligated to us and have no interest in overlooking defects made by the craftsmen, so we wanted to skip external monitoring. I hope that assumption is not completely wrong?
@ €uro: Sorry, what does GU / GÜ mean? Is there an abbreviation list here somewhere? 😉
Regarding an independent inspector in architect-led construction: so far, we have assumed that the project manager from the developer works primarily for the benefit of their company and therefore might not necessarily want to identify minor defects (which may or may not be true). If we build with the architect, it seems more likely that they are obligated to us and have no interest in overlooking defects made by the craftsmen, so we wanted to skip external monitoring. I hope that assumption is not completely wrong?
@ €uro: Sorry, what does GU / GÜ mean? Is there an abbreviation list here somewhere? 😉
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