Hello!
Since this is an extension, I can’t answer most points of the profile properly or only insufficiently. So I’ll simply describe my situation as it is. If this is not desired for clarity reasons, I can of course take the time and try to fill out the profile. My first attempt just now was rather pointless
Attached you’ll find a draft created by the architect. The changes to be made are marked in red. The extension is on the upper floor, identical to the already existing extension on the ground floor (where the building is being raised accordingly).
What is still missing there is that the wall in the original building between the hallway and child’s room 2 is to be shifted about 1.5m (5 feet) to the right according to the plan, so that child’s room 2 becomes larger. I hope you understand what I mean. All doors remain as they are, only the hallway passage from the original building to the new extension will be narrower.
We were actually quite satisfied with the plan. Cost estimate: €150,000
Detailed breakdown (offers available)
- ~€58,000 Timber frame construction including roof structure, insulation, exterior sheathing panels, and all related work
- ~€12,000 Windows and doors
- ~€25,000 Underfloor heating, plumbing, bathroom including stretch ceiling with lighting (bathroom only)
- ~€15,000 Floor coverings including screed boards, wallpaper, and paint (all including installation)
- ~€5,000 Electrical installation (a lot of own work)
- ~€15,000 Measures on the existing building including protection during construction phase
- ~€10,000 Roof terrace on existing garage including stairs to the garden
- ~€10,000 New kitchen
Now it seems that we want a third child. Then there will be no space for another child’s bedroom again. I simply can’t imagine this with the existing plan. If at all, it would have to be the living room area that is already partly separated by the partition wall, although this would make the living room feel very narrow, which we don’t like even in theory.
On the ground floor, an (unapproved) conservatory has been built on the upper side of the plan, measuring about 10 by 2.5m (33 by 8 feet).
My idea is to give this a foundation and erect supporting pillars, so that the upper floor would have a gross floor area of 10 by 9.5m (33 by 31 feet) instead of 10 by 7m (33 by 23 feet). Structurally this should be fine. Then the separated living room area could indeed be used as a master bedroom, leaving a 6 by 5m (20 by 16 feet) living room. The kitchen would also be about 5 by 2.5m (16 by 8 feet) bigger, which could create a pantry or something similar, or a covered balcony by the kitchen (I would really like that for an outdoor fryer => no odors in the open kitchen,...).
The existing conservatory could remain as is; glass elements would just need to be installed between the new supporting pillars.
Cost estimate: With an additional 20m² (215 sq ft) of living space, I would estimate the project would then cost about €200,000 instead of the planned €150,000.
What do you think? Do you have better ideas? Do you consider the costs realistic? I mean, I do have the offers, but maybe something essential is missing?
Are you missing important information or do you insist on the profile? Just let me know
Thank you very much. We look forward to your feedback and ideas!
Regards,
Xorrhal
Since this is an extension, I can’t answer most points of the profile properly or only insufficiently. So I’ll simply describe my situation as it is. If this is not desired for clarity reasons, I can of course take the time and try to fill out the profile. My first attempt just now was rather pointless
Attached you’ll find a draft created by the architect. The changes to be made are marked in red. The extension is on the upper floor, identical to the already existing extension on the ground floor (where the building is being raised accordingly).
What is still missing there is that the wall in the original building between the hallway and child’s room 2 is to be shifted about 1.5m (5 feet) to the right according to the plan, so that child’s room 2 becomes larger. I hope you understand what I mean. All doors remain as they are, only the hallway passage from the original building to the new extension will be narrower.
We were actually quite satisfied with the plan. Cost estimate: €150,000
Detailed breakdown (offers available)
- ~€58,000 Timber frame construction including roof structure, insulation, exterior sheathing panels, and all related work
- ~€12,000 Windows and doors
- ~€25,000 Underfloor heating, plumbing, bathroom including stretch ceiling with lighting (bathroom only)
- ~€15,000 Floor coverings including screed boards, wallpaper, and paint (all including installation)
- ~€5,000 Electrical installation (a lot of own work)
- ~€15,000 Measures on the existing building including protection during construction phase
- ~€10,000 Roof terrace on existing garage including stairs to the garden
- ~€10,000 New kitchen
Now it seems that we want a third child. Then there will be no space for another child’s bedroom again. I simply can’t imagine this with the existing plan. If at all, it would have to be the living room area that is already partly separated by the partition wall, although this would make the living room feel very narrow, which we don’t like even in theory.
On the ground floor, an (unapproved) conservatory has been built on the upper side of the plan, measuring about 10 by 2.5m (33 by 8 feet).
My idea is to give this a foundation and erect supporting pillars, so that the upper floor would have a gross floor area of 10 by 9.5m (33 by 31 feet) instead of 10 by 7m (33 by 23 feet). Structurally this should be fine. Then the separated living room area could indeed be used as a master bedroom, leaving a 6 by 5m (20 by 16 feet) living room. The kitchen would also be about 5 by 2.5m (16 by 8 feet) bigger, which could create a pantry or something similar, or a covered balcony by the kitchen (I would really like that for an outdoor fryer => no odors in the open kitchen,...).
The existing conservatory could remain as is; glass elements would just need to be installed between the new supporting pillars.
Cost estimate: With an additional 20m² (215 sq ft) of living space, I would estimate the project would then cost about €200,000 instead of the planned €150,000.
What do you think? Do you have better ideas? Do you consider the costs realistic? I mean, I do have the offers, but maybe something essential is missing?
Are you missing important information or do you insist on the profile? Just let me know
Thank you very much. We look forward to your feedback and ideas!
Regards,
Xorrhal
I wouldn’t force my parents to move to the upper floor either, especially if they have worked hard their whole lives to earn the house and even funded my education with their own sweat. They have probably been living there for quite some time and have a sense of home. This is not a matter of practicality or taking the easy way out. It is a matter of decency and respect. And I completely agree with the OP and wouldn’t keep going on about it endlessly.
C
chand19864 Aug 2017 11:24I can only agree with apokolok: You have set strict limits that rule out all economically and/or ergonomically sensible solutions. What remains are makeshift solutions that won’t satisfy anyone for long.
You’ve correctly understood that some compromises have to be made — the question is not if, but which ones.
Obviously, when looking at your existing space situation, the best plan (Plan A) is to move the parents upstairs and use the already available larger area downstairs for the children. They can still manage stairs now, and for later, there are technical aids that cost only a tiny fraction of what you’d need to invest in other alternatives. Economically, this is by far the most sensible and also ergonomically acceptable solution.
Now, according to you, having the parents downstairs is a sacred cow that must not be sacrificed. Let’s take that as given — the next best solution is what Nofret suggested in #10: an extension plus parents’ bedroom downstairs, arranged so that the parents’ bedroom only moves downstairs once the children reach a certain age, until then the children share a bedroom. This is a very good ergonomic solution and economically the second-best option.
But then, “everything must be on one level” is, according to you, the next sacred cow that must not be sacrificed either. And just like that, the two solutions that would work well and are feasible in the existing house are no longer possible.
What’s left now is a mix of bad and worse options — all the way to the idea of covering a conservatory with columns. And all because of those two sacred cows above? Seriously?
Personally, I would implement apokolok’s suggestion and switch the apartments.
In your case, I see the chance for that as so slim that I strongly recommend you reconsider Nofret’s proposal from #10. Call a family meeting and make it very clear that in your situation, you have to accept some kind of compromise, and this one is certainly the least painful.
Regarding your “forward-looking” future plan, you yourself say everything essential:
And in the end, your children will inherit a huge, hard-to-sell property in need of renovation? Are these two sacred cows really making you consider something so absurd?
-----
Another point: Is it even possible to obtain the necessary building permits / planning permission for this project?
You’ve correctly understood that some compromises have to be made — the question is not if, but which ones.
Obviously, when looking at your existing space situation, the best plan (Plan A) is to move the parents upstairs and use the already available larger area downstairs for the children. They can still manage stairs now, and for later, there are technical aids that cost only a tiny fraction of what you’d need to invest in other alternatives. Economically, this is by far the most sensible and also ergonomically acceptable solution.
Now, according to you, having the parents downstairs is a sacred cow that must not be sacrificed. Let’s take that as given — the next best solution is what Nofret suggested in #10: an extension plus parents’ bedroom downstairs, arranged so that the parents’ bedroom only moves downstairs once the children reach a certain age, until then the children share a bedroom. This is a very good ergonomic solution and economically the second-best option.
But then, “everything must be on one level” is, according to you, the next sacred cow that must not be sacrificed either. And just like that, the two solutions that would work well and are feasible in the existing house are no longer possible.
What’s left now is a mix of bad and worse options — all the way to the idea of covering a conservatory with columns. And all because of those two sacred cows above? Seriously?
Personally, I would implement apokolok’s suggestion and switch the apartments.
In your case, I see the chance for that as so slim that I strongly recommend you reconsider Nofret’s proposal from #10. Call a family meeting and make it very clear that in your situation, you have to accept some kind of compromise, and this one is certainly the least painful.
Regarding your “forward-looking” future plan, you yourself say everything essential:
Xorrhal schrieb:
The point about resale value is of course interesting. [...] then we’ll probably live here for the rest of our lives anyway.
And in the end, your children will inherit a huge, hard-to-sell property in need of renovation? Are these two sacred cows really making you consider something so absurd?
-----
Another point: Is it even possible to obtain the necessary building permits / planning permission for this project?
The extension, as planned, should be approved by the architect without any problems. Everything else is just speculation so far.
Okay, let’s consider Option 1: swapping apartments – viewed completely objectively without emotions.
Consequences:
- On the ground floor, 2 rooms are missing and it will need to be renovated – the original building here is still quite “old-fashioned” – no underfloor heating or similar – the bathroom is also 20 years old.
- The upper floor requires major renovation – at least the bathroom as it currently exists is not adaptable for aging in place and therefore needs to be relocated – a balcony for smoking is also absolutely necessary, and it cannot be built on the sides (due to fire safety regulations, which have already been applied for and rejected).
- A lift must be installed or already incorporated in the staircase.
Whether the effort and cost are really more economical than the extension, I cannot judge; I cannot imagine the costs for such renovations. The fact is, on the ground floor of the old building you could still probably experiment the most without damaging anything newly built – except for the flooring. But whether load-bearing walls can or should be removed there is unclear.
One thought that no one has had so far (including us): The old building has a basement. It has exactly the same room layout as the other floors, except for what is marked as “WC” (toilet) on the upper floor – the small room – which does not exist in the basement, where the adjacent room is simply larger.
Problem here: There is a lot of stuff stored. Even if you decluttered extremely thoroughly, you wouldn’t free up a whole room. There are tools, washing machines, dryers, heating units, chest freezers, and lots of items that are only used once a year (decorations, ladders, scaffolding, etc.).
All that would have to be relocated – the extension should have been built with a basement back then… as I see it, no solution here. Or a huge shed in the garden – which would look terrible, probably would only be allowed illegally, and would also cost money.
However, this space does exist, it could be renovated and converted, and it would not impose any restrictions (apart from structural ones). Ah, and the inventory would have to be moved somewhere else.
On the other hand, having bedrooms, children’s rooms, and the bathroom in the basement, and the rest of the apartment upstairs – somehow that doesn’t sound appealing either. And it will also cost a lot…
These are thoughts worth exploring in more depth. Maybe then you wouldn’t have to move the parents upstairs...
Option 2 – only the bedroom on the ground floor – I really cannot come to terms with that… Who wants to sleep wall-to-wall with their own parents? And that would exactly be the case here – and we also wouldn’t have a bathroom near the bedroom.
Okay, let’s consider Option 1: swapping apartments – viewed completely objectively without emotions.
Consequences:
- On the ground floor, 2 rooms are missing and it will need to be renovated – the original building here is still quite “old-fashioned” – no underfloor heating or similar – the bathroom is also 20 years old.
- The upper floor requires major renovation – at least the bathroom as it currently exists is not adaptable for aging in place and therefore needs to be relocated – a balcony for smoking is also absolutely necessary, and it cannot be built on the sides (due to fire safety regulations, which have already been applied for and rejected).
- A lift must be installed or already incorporated in the staircase.
Whether the effort and cost are really more economical than the extension, I cannot judge; I cannot imagine the costs for such renovations. The fact is, on the ground floor of the old building you could still probably experiment the most without damaging anything newly built – except for the flooring. But whether load-bearing walls can or should be removed there is unclear.
One thought that no one has had so far (including us): The old building has a basement. It has exactly the same room layout as the other floors, except for what is marked as “WC” (toilet) on the upper floor – the small room – which does not exist in the basement, where the adjacent room is simply larger.
Problem here: There is a lot of stuff stored. Even if you decluttered extremely thoroughly, you wouldn’t free up a whole room. There are tools, washing machines, dryers, heating units, chest freezers, and lots of items that are only used once a year (decorations, ladders, scaffolding, etc.).
All that would have to be relocated – the extension should have been built with a basement back then… as I see it, no solution here. Or a huge shed in the garden – which would look terrible, probably would only be allowed illegally, and would also cost money.
However, this space does exist, it could be renovated and converted, and it would not impose any restrictions (apart from structural ones). Ah, and the inventory would have to be moved somewhere else.
On the other hand, having bedrooms, children’s rooms, and the bathroom in the basement, and the rest of the apartment upstairs – somehow that doesn’t sound appealing either. And it will also cost a lot…
These are thoughts worth exploring in more depth. Maybe then you wouldn’t have to move the parents upstairs...
Option 2 – only the bedroom on the ground floor – I really cannot come to terms with that… Who wants to sleep wall-to-wall with their own parents? And that would exactly be the case here – and we also wouldn’t have a bathroom near the bedroom.
I just had an idea....
Why not install a stairlift in the stairwell (you know what I mean)? Then, the age of the parents combined with the upper floor won’t be an issue anymore, and you can swap the floors—period.
It might cost you around 10,000 euros (about 11,000 dollars) and that’s it.
...and one more thing, ask your parents if they even want you to take on an additional 200,000–250,000 euros (about 220,000–275,000 dollars) in debt. My parents would be shocked if I told them I want or need to go into that much debt because of them.
Why not install a stairlift in the stairwell (you know what I mean)? Then, the age of the parents combined with the upper floor won’t be an issue anymore, and you can swap the floors—period.
It might cost you around 10,000 euros (about 11,000 dollars) and that’s it.
...and one more thing, ask your parents if they even want you to take on an additional 200,000–250,000 euros (about 220,000–275,000 dollars) in debt. My parents would be shocked if I told them I want or need to go into that much debt because of them.
C
chand19864 Aug 2017 12:13Zaba12 schrieb:
Just install a stairlift in the stairwell (you know what I mean?). Then the parents' age combined with the upper floor is no longer an issue, and you just swap the floors. Period.
It might cost you around 10,000 euros (about 10,000 USD) and that’s it.But the heavy smoker insists on an "outdoor area"... and apparently that’s not possible upstairs.
chand1986 schrieb:
But the chain smoker insists on an "outdoor area"... and apparently that’s not possible upstairs.I know this has been mentioned somewhere before, but if that is the "next sacred cow," it would be ridiculous.
Then one of the "former" bedrooms (upstairs) becomes a smoking room, or simply a steel-framed balcony costing around 10,000€ (about 11,000 USD) as a substitute for an outdoor area. You don’t necessarily have to add a room downstairs just to have a balcony upstairs.
In total, you’d be spending around 20,000€ (about 22,000 USD) or maybe even 25,000€ (about 27,500 USD), and everyone would be happy.
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