ᐅ House Planning from Scratch – Financial Calculation, Basement...
Created on: 29 Jul 2017 23:32
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ArvavanHarbenA
ArvavanHarben29 Jul 2017 23:32Dear forum members,
I have spent most (actually the entire) evening reading and following the discussions here and am now very impressed by the level of expertise, knowledge, and experience gathered. Therefore, I would like to ask for advice (and hopefully contribute my own experiences in five years...).
We are currently starting from scratch with our house planning – almost:
1. Financial Planning
We have a budget of approximately 500,000 euros.
However, the plot of land (ideal location for us) will cost around 190,000 euros including purchase-related fees.
We have allocated 15,000 euros for furniture, kitchen, moving, a small buffer, etc.
Outdoor facilities/garden/garage are budgeted at 25,000 euros – although parts of this will not need to be implemented immediately; the only immediate requirement will likely be the cistern (from the development plan: “a cistern with a forced drainage and a specific volume of at least 25 liters per square meter (L/m²) of sealed surface area (projection – roof surface view) with subsequent infiltration via swales”), though I don’t really understand what this entails or costs. So there could be a buffer here as well.
Additional building-related incidental costs are currently estimated at 15,000 euros. This excludes the foundation slab, earthworks, basement, etc. (see below under 3.1).
This leaves about 255,000 euros remaining.
2. Our Plot
Our plot is about 1.3 meters (4.3 feet) below the current street level. It slopes gently (around 50 centimeters (20 inches) drop over 20 meters (66 feet)). Waterproofing of the basement against non-pressing groundwater is required.
3. Ideas/Concepts/Wishes
Our ideal house would be around 130-140 square meters (1,400-1,500 square feet):
In addition to living room/kitchen/toilet, a small combined office/guest room. Two children’s rooms, one bedroom, one bathroom. We would also like a utility room with space for household appliances and a place to dry laundry.
Additionally, we need storage space for garden tools/bicycles and ideally at least a small basement/storage room.
4. Questions
Aside from your general thoughts on our plans, here are some specific questions:
Regarding 1.: a) Is this financial plan realistic as a rough guideline? If not – we can hardly increase the budget – and the plot is not yet purchased, would it be better to look for a less favorable (and cheaper) location?
Regarding 3: b) Given the topography of the plot, we are considering whether to include a basement under part of the house or even develop living space there – how would the limited excavation affect that, considering that fill might be required? This would reduce otherwise usable living area. Would this be a reasonable cost saving?
Regarding 3: c) What is the best way to proceed with finding a house supplier? d) Should we simply contact various masonry house builders with this rough concept? Should I approach prefab house manufacturers in a prefab house center with these rough specifications and ask for proposals?
e) What is the general situation with prefab house manufacturers? From what I have read in the last four hours, some are described as “budget range,” others as “high quality,” etc. Can manufacturers roughly be grouped by quality – does the rule “the more expensive, the better the quality” generally apply? Is it possible to say that “X” is higher quality than “Y” but also more expensive? (And how is quality measured: wall thickness/insulation and materials used?)
Thank you in advance for your help – if it goes well, I will start a construction blog soon! Have a great rest of your Saturday/Sunday.
I have spent most (actually the entire) evening reading and following the discussions here and am now very impressed by the level of expertise, knowledge, and experience gathered. Therefore, I would like to ask for advice (and hopefully contribute my own experiences in five years...).
We are currently starting from scratch with our house planning – almost:
1. Financial Planning
We have a budget of approximately 500,000 euros.
However, the plot of land (ideal location for us) will cost around 190,000 euros including purchase-related fees.
We have allocated 15,000 euros for furniture, kitchen, moving, a small buffer, etc.
Outdoor facilities/garden/garage are budgeted at 25,000 euros – although parts of this will not need to be implemented immediately; the only immediate requirement will likely be the cistern (from the development plan: “a cistern with a forced drainage and a specific volume of at least 25 liters per square meter (L/m²) of sealed surface area (projection – roof surface view) with subsequent infiltration via swales”), though I don’t really understand what this entails or costs. So there could be a buffer here as well.
Additional building-related incidental costs are currently estimated at 15,000 euros. This excludes the foundation slab, earthworks, basement, etc. (see below under 3.1).
This leaves about 255,000 euros remaining.
2. Our Plot
Our plot is about 1.3 meters (4.3 feet) below the current street level. It slopes gently (around 50 centimeters (20 inches) drop over 20 meters (66 feet)). Waterproofing of the basement against non-pressing groundwater is required.
3. Ideas/Concepts/Wishes
Our ideal house would be around 130-140 square meters (1,400-1,500 square feet):
In addition to living room/kitchen/toilet, a small combined office/guest room. Two children’s rooms, one bedroom, one bathroom. We would also like a utility room with space for household appliances and a place to dry laundry.
Additionally, we need storage space for garden tools/bicycles and ideally at least a small basement/storage room.
4. Questions
Aside from your general thoughts on our plans, here are some specific questions:
Regarding 1.: a) Is this financial plan realistic as a rough guideline? If not – we can hardly increase the budget – and the plot is not yet purchased, would it be better to look for a less favorable (and cheaper) location?
Regarding 3: b) Given the topography of the plot, we are considering whether to include a basement under part of the house or even develop living space there – how would the limited excavation affect that, considering that fill might be required? This would reduce otherwise usable living area. Would this be a reasonable cost saving?
Regarding 3: c) What is the best way to proceed with finding a house supplier? d) Should we simply contact various masonry house builders with this rough concept? Should I approach prefab house manufacturers in a prefab house center with these rough specifications and ask for proposals?
e) What is the general situation with prefab house manufacturers? From what I have read in the last four hours, some are described as “budget range,” others as “high quality,” etc. Can manufacturers roughly be grouped by quality – does the rule “the more expensive, the better the quality” generally apply? Is it possible to say that “X” is higher quality than “Y” but also more expensive? (And how is quality measured: wall thickness/insulation and materials used?)
Thank you in advance for your help – if it goes well, I will start a construction blog soon! Have a great rest of your Saturday/Sunday.
2) I wouldn’t buy the plot right now. It’s surprising what kind of absurdities municipalities come up with during road construction. This "relative elevation" of the plot doesn’t necessarily improve; often, the opposite happens.
3) The expectations regarding the house size are reasonable and almost unusually realistic.
4b) Recently, I shared a rule of thumb here: If the height difference under the house’s foundation area is 2m (6.5 ft) or more, the costs of a foundation without a basement are no longer cheaper than building a basement, even if you don’t plan to use it for anything specific. At a 1m (3.3 ft) difference, the savings are about half.
These space requirements can be realized as one-and-a-half or even two-story houses without using the basement as living space. Wastewater from basement rooms may require complex lifting systems to pump it into the sewer if it is higher than the basement.
4c/d) You have the widest choice if you’re not fixed on either prefabricated (modular) or solid construction; otherwise, there is still a considerable range. However, given the current market situation with abundant suppliers, you may face waiting times.
The main problem with offers is comparing apples to oranges. The so-called "scope of work description"—which type of blocks, how many power outlets, which tiles, or whether the house is delivered “ready for painting” or fully move-in ready, plus who pays for construction power, etc.—varies everywhere and is a jungle for laypeople. Simply put, the “cheapest” provider calculates the most based on your lack of knowledge or experience, but none of them give anything away.
All providers have ready-made offers in various sizes and price categories. First, to always have an answer; second, so customers have a basis for discussion, including a visual idea of the house type.
4e) Roughly speaking, a specialist doctor or lawyer might choose Weberhaus, a senior manager Schwörerhaus, an office worker a mid-range builder like Bien-Zenker, a skilled worker Fingerhut Haus, and so on—but you don’t have to take every word from me as gospel ;-)
Wall thickness and insulation levels are not a main criterion. You must comply with legal requirements. Those wanting to go further may receive subsidies. Therefore, there are offers for the legal minimum standard (Energy Saving Ordinance 2016) and for KfW55 and KfW40 standard houses. Providers try to meet each standard in the most profitable way for themselves.
Electrical and plumbing standards are significant cost factors, as are windows and doors with all related features (burglary protection, shading, etc.). And naturally, the appearance: brick or cladding facades are more expensive than plaster finishes.
A good house builder—whether prefabricated or solid construction—listens, advises, and steers you away from unrealistic ideas. You can also recognize them by their clients who match you. Look at reference homeowners: if they don’t fit your profile, the builder probably won’t either.
Prefab builders usually operate regionally to nationally, while solid builders mostly work within cooperations at the national level but individually often only within about a 100km (60 miles) radius, sometimes less. And all of them are essentially using tried-and-tested methods. If you come from southern Rhineland-Palatinate, only ask builders within Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, Hesse, or northern Baden-Württemberg. Comparison offers from places like Ulm or Schwerin probably won’t give you any eye-opening insights.
Visit reference houses. Many builders—both prefab and solid—also invite prospective customers to housewarming events, where you can meet other interested buyers and talk to them.
Or do it the other way around and consider building areas around you as a kind of "showroom." Either houses are still under construction, and you can see who the builder is; or people have already moved in, and on Saturdays you have a good chance of getting friendly information over the garden fence.
In plain English: With, for example, 200 m² (2,150 sq ft) of built-up / roofed / paved area (house, terrace, driveway), a 5,000-liter (1,320 gallons) rainwater storage tank that can’t overflow would be necessary. The idea is to buffer a heavy rainfall, so the sewer only has to handle water from the street initially.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
3) The expectations regarding the house size are reasonable and almost unusually realistic.
4b) Recently, I shared a rule of thumb here: If the height difference under the house’s foundation area is 2m (6.5 ft) or more, the costs of a foundation without a basement are no longer cheaper than building a basement, even if you don’t plan to use it for anything specific. At a 1m (3.3 ft) difference, the savings are about half.
These space requirements can be realized as one-and-a-half or even two-story houses without using the basement as living space. Wastewater from basement rooms may require complex lifting systems to pump it into the sewer if it is higher than the basement.
4c/d) You have the widest choice if you’re not fixed on either prefabricated (modular) or solid construction; otherwise, there is still a considerable range. However, given the current market situation with abundant suppliers, you may face waiting times.
The main problem with offers is comparing apples to oranges. The so-called "scope of work description"—which type of blocks, how many power outlets, which tiles, or whether the house is delivered “ready for painting” or fully move-in ready, plus who pays for construction power, etc.—varies everywhere and is a jungle for laypeople. Simply put, the “cheapest” provider calculates the most based on your lack of knowledge or experience, but none of them give anything away.
All providers have ready-made offers in various sizes and price categories. First, to always have an answer; second, so customers have a basis for discussion, including a visual idea of the house type.
4e) Roughly speaking, a specialist doctor or lawyer might choose Weberhaus, a senior manager Schwörerhaus, an office worker a mid-range builder like Bien-Zenker, a skilled worker Fingerhut Haus, and so on—but you don’t have to take every word from me as gospel ;-)
Wall thickness and insulation levels are not a main criterion. You must comply with legal requirements. Those wanting to go further may receive subsidies. Therefore, there are offers for the legal minimum standard (Energy Saving Ordinance 2016) and for KfW55 and KfW40 standard houses. Providers try to meet each standard in the most profitable way for themselves.
Electrical and plumbing standards are significant cost factors, as are windows and doors with all related features (burglary protection, shading, etc.). And naturally, the appearance: brick or cladding facades are more expensive than plaster finishes.
A good house builder—whether prefabricated or solid construction—listens, advises, and steers you away from unrealistic ideas. You can also recognize them by their clients who match you. Look at reference homeowners: if they don’t fit your profile, the builder probably won’t either.
Prefab builders usually operate regionally to nationally, while solid builders mostly work within cooperations at the national level but individually often only within about a 100km (60 miles) radius, sometimes less. And all of them are essentially using tried-and-tested methods. If you come from southern Rhineland-Palatinate, only ask builders within Rhineland-Palatinate, Saarland, Hesse, or northern Baden-Württemberg. Comparison offers from places like Ulm or Schwerin probably won’t give you any eye-opening insights.
Visit reference houses. Many builders—both prefab and solid—also invite prospective customers to housewarming events, where you can meet other interested buyers and talk to them.
Or do it the other way around and consider building areas around you as a kind of "showroom." Either houses are still under construction, and you can see who the builder is; or people have already moved in, and on Saturdays you have a good chance of getting friendly information over the garden fence.
ArvavanHarben schrieb:
"a cistern with a forced drainage volume of at least 25l/m² of sealed surface area (projected area – roof surface view) with subsequent infiltration via basins") will probably have to be installed immediately – although I have no idea what exactly is required here or what it costs.
In plain English: With, for example, 200 m² (2,150 sq ft) of built-up / roofed / paved area (house, terrace, driveway), a 5,000-liter (1,320 gallons) rainwater storage tank that can’t overflow would be necessary. The idea is to buffer a heavy rainfall, so the sewer only has to handle water from the street initially.
https://www.instagram.com/11antgmxde/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/bauen-jetzt/
Yes, it is allowed to overflow. We are talking about a basin after all.
How large is the plot, or did I miss that? Basins require space. Is there a soil report available, particularly regarding infiltration capacity? If this is not very good, the basin will need to be even larger...
How large is the plot, or did I miss that? Basins require space. Is there a soil report available, particularly regarding infiltration capacity? If this is not very good, the basin will need to be even larger...
Short answer regarding financing: usually, the price of the plot indicates it is not a very inexpensive location, meaning it’s not like building in a lower-cost area where construction is still relatively affordable.
With €255,000 (about $275,000) and without even including earthworks... even without a basement and only 140 sqm (1,500 sq ft)... in a costly region... I see few chances.
With €255,000 (about $275,000) and without even including earthworks... even without a basement and only 140 sqm (1,500 sq ft)... in a costly region... I see few chances.
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Bau-Schmidt30 Jul 2017 08:33The cost ratio of land to house would be too high. For the land, I would spend approximately €100,000 based on the total construction budget.
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ArvavanHarben30 Jul 2017 09:22Hello, wow, so many good replies on a Sunday morning.
@11ant: Thank you for your tips on how to proceed. We have now decided to drive to Mannheim this morning to the model home center to easily see different house types and designs.
Regarding rainwater (also Alex85): the plot is about 450 sqm (5400 sq ft). There is no soil survey yet, as we have only reserved the plot and have not purchased it. And before knowing how feasible the project is there, we did not want to commission a soil survey. So, I don’t know much beyond the requirements from the development plan draft. What are typical cost ranges for this wastewater solution? I couldn’t find even rough estimates online.
@Tego12 and Bau-Schmidt: it is already difficult to find plots in this region (near Mannheim, Heidelberg, Karlsruhe). I know people here who have been searching for 4-5 years. I was quite shocked by the plot price at first. Therefore, I find €100,000 including purchase-related costs for a fully serviced plot unrealistic. If I keep an eye on this plot (or similarly priced ones), by how much would I need to increase my budget?
Alternatively: this was a request about a municipal plot through a developer. There are currently no municipally owned plots available in our region. Online portals hardly have any worthwhile land for building. Does it make sense to work with real estate agents then (which would increase the price further) or to contact construction companies directly (which would likely increase purchase-related costs due to bundling)? Do they have plots that I cannot access otherwise? What other options might there be?
@11ant: Thank you for your tips on how to proceed. We have now decided to drive to Mannheim this morning to the model home center to easily see different house types and designs.
Regarding rainwater (also Alex85): the plot is about 450 sqm (5400 sq ft). There is no soil survey yet, as we have only reserved the plot and have not purchased it. And before knowing how feasible the project is there, we did not want to commission a soil survey. So, I don’t know much beyond the requirements from the development plan draft. What are typical cost ranges for this wastewater solution? I couldn’t find even rough estimates online.
@Tego12 and Bau-Schmidt: it is already difficult to find plots in this region (near Mannheim, Heidelberg, Karlsruhe). I know people here who have been searching for 4-5 years. I was quite shocked by the plot price at first. Therefore, I find €100,000 including purchase-related costs for a fully serviced plot unrealistic. If I keep an eye on this plot (or similarly priced ones), by how much would I need to increase my budget?
Alternatively: this was a request about a municipal plot through a developer. There are currently no municipally owned plots available in our region. Online portals hardly have any worthwhile land for building. Does it make sense to work with real estate agents then (which would increase the price further) or to contact construction companies directly (which would likely increase purchase-related costs due to bundling)? Do they have plots that I cannot access otherwise? What other options might there be?
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