ᐅ Air-to-Water Heat Pump: Icing Up, Noisy, Continuous Operation?
Created on: 29 Nov 2016 13:26
D
dertutnix
Hello,
I am new to this topic and have a few questions:
We are currently in the final phase of building our house and have received our heating system (still connected to construction power). The building is currently being "dried out."
Points that I am not satisfied with at the moment:
1. Unfortunately, the outdoor unit was installed on the house wall and not decoupled as discussed (the plan was to place it on the garage or in front/next to the house). What can still be done to fix this? As is often the case: nothing was documented in writing.
2. What I have noticed: the side vent of the outdoor unit is partially frozen at 8-13°C (46-55°F) or completely iced over at the moment, with temperatures of 6°C (43°F) or lower down to -5°C (23°F). I have not yet seen the defrost function "in action," but I am only on site for a few hours to talk to the contractors or ventilate. In the settings (which I have only briefly looked at), I only see "99% load" and the second heat source is "active" continuously. Is that normal? The room temperature is currently set to 24°C (75°F), and it is around that temperature as well.
3. I find the outdoor unit very loud and I am worried that this might cause issues with my neighbor. For example, I can feel vibrations throughout the house, I can hear the outdoor unit upstairs, and it is not very quiet outside either. The fan runs almost continuously at a high level, and the system rarely slows down. It is annoying.
The plumber has already come and adjusted something (I don’t know what exactly), and the manufacturer’s service has also been on site. So far, it has not helped much.
House information:
KFW55 city villa, 140 sqm (1,507 sq ft), detached, 24cm (9.5 inch) lightweight concrete with 18cm (7 inch) external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS), decentralized ventilation (Inventer), air-to-water heat pump (Weishaupt WWP L 7 AERS with 200-liter (53 gallons) domestic hot water tank), underfloor heating throughout, outdoor unit directly next to the utility room.
I hope you can provide some guidance, as I have been following this forum for a while.
I am new to this topic and have a few questions:
We are currently in the final phase of building our house and have received our heating system (still connected to construction power). The building is currently being "dried out."
Points that I am not satisfied with at the moment:
1. Unfortunately, the outdoor unit was installed on the house wall and not decoupled as discussed (the plan was to place it on the garage or in front/next to the house). What can still be done to fix this? As is often the case: nothing was documented in writing.
2. What I have noticed: the side vent of the outdoor unit is partially frozen at 8-13°C (46-55°F) or completely iced over at the moment, with temperatures of 6°C (43°F) or lower down to -5°C (23°F). I have not yet seen the defrost function "in action," but I am only on site for a few hours to talk to the contractors or ventilate. In the settings (which I have only briefly looked at), I only see "99% load" and the second heat source is "active" continuously. Is that normal? The room temperature is currently set to 24°C (75°F), and it is around that temperature as well.
3. I find the outdoor unit very loud and I am worried that this might cause issues with my neighbor. For example, I can feel vibrations throughout the house, I can hear the outdoor unit upstairs, and it is not very quiet outside either. The fan runs almost continuously at a high level, and the system rarely slows down. It is annoying.
The plumber has already come and adjusted something (I don’t know what exactly), and the manufacturer’s service has also been on site. So far, it has not helped much.
House information:
KFW55 city villa, 140 sqm (1,507 sq ft), detached, 24cm (9.5 inch) lightweight concrete with 18cm (7 inch) external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS), decentralized ventilation (Inventer), air-to-water heat pump (Weishaupt WWP L 7 AERS with 200-liter (53 gallons) domestic hot water tank), underfloor heating throughout, outdoor unit directly next to the utility room.
I hope you can provide some guidance, as I have been following this forum for a while.
K
Knallkörper1 Dec 2016 16:00Hello.
According to the generally accepted rules of technology, such a unit MUST have effective vibration isolation.
According to the generally accepted rules of technology, such a unit MUST have effective vibration isolation.
Knallkörper schrieb:
Hello.
According to best practices, such a generator MUST have effective vibration isolation.Since best practices are not legally binding, unfortunately you cannot apply or insist on this.B
Bauexperte1 Dec 2016 23:41II. Generally Accepted Rules of Technology
There is no legal definition of the term “generally accepted rules of technology,” although it is used in some regulations (e.g., § 3 Building Code NRW, VOB Part B). Case law defines it as follows:
“Recognized technical rules are those principles and solutions that have been tested and proven in practice and have been accepted by the majority of practitioners.”
Therefore, in addition to the theoretical component—that is, the relevant scientific knowledge—a practical component is also required: the method must have proven itself in practice. The rules of technology do not have to be formally documented.
The recognized rules may include:
Recognized rules of building technology are mainly found in DIN standards. According to case law, there is a presumption that DIN standards reflect the recognized rules of technology. This means that anyone claiming a DIN standard does not represent the state of the art bears the burden of proof.
It should be noted, however, that there are also DIN standards that are outdated compared to the current rules of technology. Such outdated DIN standards lose their significance as technical rules.
An example of this is the sound insulation requirements of DIN 4109. In its decision on June 14, 2007 (Case No. VII ZR 45/06), the Federal Court of Justice stated:
“Furthermore, it would be incorrect to regard the sound insulation requirements formulated in DIN 4109—whether for a minimum standard or for increased sound insulation—as recognized technical rules regardless of the construction methods available. The Court has repeatedly pointed out that DIN standards are not legal regulations but private technical standards with a recommending character. DIN standards can reflect recognized rules of technology or lag behind them ( ). Sound insulation requirements are subject to dynamic change. On the one hand, they are based on people’s current needs for peace and privacy in their living spaces. On the other hand, they depend on the capabilities of the building trade and construction industry to provide as comprehensive sound insulation as possible, taking into account the economic interests of both contracting parties. Soundproofing measures set forth in private technical standards cannot be considered recognized technical rules if economically acceptable construction methods are available that comply with recognized technical rules and readily achieve higher sound insulation values.”
It must also be noted that recognized rules of technology must be observed at the time of acceptance of the construction work. This can become problematic if the rules of technology change during the course of the project. For example, if the Energy Saving Ordinance changes during the construction phase, the project can still be built according to the regulations of the originally granted building permit without causing building code compliance issues. However, there is a risk that compliance with the then outdated requirements of the Energy Saving Ordinance may legally constitute a defective performance under civil law.
Furthermore, it should be considered that not every newly published DIN standard automatically represents the generally accepted rule of technology. General acceptance requires that the regulation has proven itself in building practice.
Source: Practical notice: The legal significance of technical regulations, aknw
Best regards, Bauexperte
There is no legal definition of the term “generally accepted rules of technology,” although it is used in some regulations (e.g., § 3 Building Code NRW, VOB Part B). Case law defines it as follows:
“Recognized technical rules are those principles and solutions that have been tested and proven in practice and have been accepted by the majority of practitioners.”
Therefore, in addition to the theoretical component—that is, the relevant scientific knowledge—a practical component is also required: the method must have proven itself in practice. The rules of technology do not have to be formally documented.
The recognized rules may include:
- - VOB/C
- - DIN standards
- - unified technical building regulations (building codes/planning permission)
- - European standards
- - manufacturer’s instructions for processing a specific product
- - regulations of DVGW (German Association for Gas and Water)
- - legal provisions (e.g., the Energy Saving Ordinance)
Recognized rules of building technology are mainly found in DIN standards. According to case law, there is a presumption that DIN standards reflect the recognized rules of technology. This means that anyone claiming a DIN standard does not represent the state of the art bears the burden of proof.
It should be noted, however, that there are also DIN standards that are outdated compared to the current rules of technology. Such outdated DIN standards lose their significance as technical rules.
An example of this is the sound insulation requirements of DIN 4109. In its decision on June 14, 2007 (Case No. VII ZR 45/06), the Federal Court of Justice stated:
“Furthermore, it would be incorrect to regard the sound insulation requirements formulated in DIN 4109—whether for a minimum standard or for increased sound insulation—as recognized technical rules regardless of the construction methods available. The Court has repeatedly pointed out that DIN standards are not legal regulations but private technical standards with a recommending character. DIN standards can reflect recognized rules of technology or lag behind them ( ). Sound insulation requirements are subject to dynamic change. On the one hand, they are based on people’s current needs for peace and privacy in their living spaces. On the other hand, they depend on the capabilities of the building trade and construction industry to provide as comprehensive sound insulation as possible, taking into account the economic interests of both contracting parties. Soundproofing measures set forth in private technical standards cannot be considered recognized technical rules if economically acceptable construction methods are available that comply with recognized technical rules and readily achieve higher sound insulation values.”
It must also be noted that recognized rules of technology must be observed at the time of acceptance of the construction work. This can become problematic if the rules of technology change during the course of the project. For example, if the Energy Saving Ordinance changes during the construction phase, the project can still be built according to the regulations of the originally granted building permit without causing building code compliance issues. However, there is a risk that compliance with the then outdated requirements of the Energy Saving Ordinance may legally constitute a defective performance under civil law.
Furthermore, it should be considered that not every newly published DIN standard automatically represents the generally accepted rule of technology. General acceptance requires that the regulation has proven itself in building practice.
Source: Practical notice: The legal significance of technical regulations, aknw
Best regards, Bauexperte
Knallkörper schrieb:
You can agree on compliance with the recognized technical standards in a contract under the building code. Although I suspect this is not actually necessary.Correct.
The recognized technical standards are always considered implicitly agreed upon according to case law.
This also applies in contracts under the building code.
If compliance with the recognized technical standards is not possible, the contractor must provide documented clarification about this.
D
dertutnix4 Dec 2016 14:32So, a brief interim summary:
The heating system is still running at 99% output plus the second heat source (electric heater), operating almost continuously at full load except for a few minutes, with the associated consequences (noise, vibrations, consumption).
Consumption:
It used about 300 kWh over the last 4 days (which I could hardly believe), even though we have only had subzero temperatures again for 2 days. The outdoor unit’s fan and the outlet are still heavily iced over, despite the defrost cycle running occasionally (which does not fully clear the ice).
Noise level:
Usually (during almost continuous full operation) around 51–55 dB inside (in the room where the heating system is located) and 48–52 dB outside (at a distance of about 2–3 meters (7–10 feet)). Vibrations are still noticeable throughout the entire house.
I get frustrated every time I am near the house... everything else has worked really well so far, but this… is unacceptable.
The heating system is still running at 99% output plus the second heat source (electric heater), operating almost continuously at full load except for a few minutes, with the associated consequences (noise, vibrations, consumption).
Consumption:
It used about 300 kWh over the last 4 days (which I could hardly believe), even though we have only had subzero temperatures again for 2 days. The outdoor unit’s fan and the outlet are still heavily iced over, despite the defrost cycle running occasionally (which does not fully clear the ice).
Noise level:
Usually (during almost continuous full operation) around 51–55 dB inside (in the room where the heating system is located) and 48–52 dB outside (at a distance of about 2–3 meters (7–10 feet)). Vibrations are still noticeable throughout the entire house.
I get frustrated every time I am near the house... everything else has worked really well so far, but this… is unacceptable.
D
dertutnix15 Dec 2016 12:37Current Status:
So, the "drying program" is apparently finished, the heat pump’s standard temperature is set to 21.5° Celsius (70.7°F) instead of 24° Celsius (75.2°F) before. The outdoor unit will be relocated (moved away from the house wall), let’s see what the architect has planned (I assume the garage, makes sense? The goal is decoupling).
Despite outdoor temperatures above freezing at night and 5-10° Celsius (41-50°F) during the day, the outdoor unit is still completely iced over (unlike other new builds). The architect is also skeptical, and the heat pump continues to consume electricity.
So far, in just under 5 weeks, about 2100 kWh have been used, with construction electricity costs around 30 cents per kWh, resulting in approximately 560 euros in costs.
Let’s see how it develops from here.
Question 1:
According to the manual and tests (I navigated through the menu), I can’t find any information on the operating time of the heating element, electricity consumption, heat meter, etc.
Where can I find this information?
Question 2:
Is it worth investing in digital room controllers for “better” control, e.g., temperature display, timer programs, more precise temperature settings, and cooling function (supported by the heat pump) compared to standard controllers (OFF and levels 1-5, no cooling, etc.)? We have 6 units, I believe… costs add up. Or if only partially: in which rooms?
Thank you.
So, the "drying program" is apparently finished, the heat pump’s standard temperature is set to 21.5° Celsius (70.7°F) instead of 24° Celsius (75.2°F) before. The outdoor unit will be relocated (moved away from the house wall), let’s see what the architect has planned (I assume the garage, makes sense? The goal is decoupling).
Despite outdoor temperatures above freezing at night and 5-10° Celsius (41-50°F) during the day, the outdoor unit is still completely iced over (unlike other new builds). The architect is also skeptical, and the heat pump continues to consume electricity.
So far, in just under 5 weeks, about 2100 kWh have been used, with construction electricity costs around 30 cents per kWh, resulting in approximately 560 euros in costs.
Let’s see how it develops from here.
Question 1:
According to the manual and tests (I navigated through the menu), I can’t find any information on the operating time of the heating element, electricity consumption, heat meter, etc.
Where can I find this information?
Question 2:
Is it worth investing in digital room controllers for “better” control, e.g., temperature display, timer programs, more precise temperature settings, and cooling function (supported by the heat pump) compared to standard controllers (OFF and levels 1-5, no cooling, etc.)? We have 6 units, I believe… costs add up. Or if only partially: in which rooms?
Thank you.
Similar topics