ᐅ How to Soundproof the Floor/Ceiling in a Multi-Family Building?
Created on: 13 Oct 2016 19:15
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phi77
Hello,
A four-family house is going to be completely renovated from the ground up. There will be no more tenants.
According to the former tenants, it was quite noisy inside, which I think is probably due to the intermediate ceilings. My first idea would be to install about 4cm (1.5 inches) of screed/concrete in each room on top of approximately 2cm (0.75 inches) of 035 styrofoam boards. Special biodegradable insulation panels costing 58€/m2 (square meter) are beyond my budget, so I need a good and cost-effective solution for about 300m2 (square meters).
Has anyone had experience with this?
Thanks and best regards,
phi77
A four-family house is going to be completely renovated from the ground up. There will be no more tenants.
According to the former tenants, it was quite noisy inside, which I think is probably due to the intermediate ceilings. My first idea would be to install about 4cm (1.5 inches) of screed/concrete in each room on top of approximately 2cm (0.75 inches) of 035 styrofoam boards. Special biodegradable insulation panels costing 58€/m2 (square meter) are beyond my budget, so I need a good and cost-effective solution for about 300m2 (square meters).
Has anyone had experience with this?
Thanks and best regards,
phi77
Great, thanks... Last night I even thought of (of course also because of the order scope and adjustment of the door frames) that you could lower the ceilings from below and fill the space with sound-absorbing material. I would have about 20cm (8 inches) of space, which should significantly reduce noise. What would be a good filling material from an acoustic standpoint?
Yes, and unfortunately I have to do everything myself, as the purchase price has completely exhausted my financial freedom...
Yes, and unfortunately I have to do everything myself, as the purchase price has completely exhausted my financial freedom...
Again: As long as nothing is known about the problem and its cause, no reliable solutions can be proposed. A suspended ceiling may improve the situation, but it might also have no effect or even make it worse. The planning and execution of the countermeasure depend on the nature of the problem (airborne sound or impact sound) and the existing building conditions. Without at least this basic information, no one will be able to offer you a reliable solution.
And if you want to play Russian roulette and just implement any measure (within your almost unrealistically limited budget), the likelihood that your investment will not provide any acoustic improvement is very, very high.
And if you want to play Russian roulette and just implement any measure (within your almost unrealistically limited budget), the likelihood that your investment will not provide any acoustic improvement is very, very high.
Thank you, I completely understand. Once the notary and all formalities are settled, I will of course carefully inspect the rooms, or maybe let a few children play upstairs... 😱
Regardless of the outcome, you can’t remove the intermediate joists. I also think that if the floorboards are nailed directly onto the joists, and the joists are ultimately fixed to the walls, my work will mainly focus on installing a thin, high-quality impact sound insulation layer between the floorboards and the joists. However, the floorboards should no longer be embedded at the edges into the plaster or wall, but rather left with a 1cm (0.4 inch) gap… This would likely reduce the sound most effectively before it can even spread… 🤨
It is an old village house, located far off the beaten path. Tenants can only be found here with very low rents… It’s an unfortunate situation for running service businesses without a reliable prospect of stable and secure rental income…
Regardless of the outcome, you can’t remove the intermediate joists. I also think that if the floorboards are nailed directly onto the joists, and the joists are ultimately fixed to the walls, my work will mainly focus on installing a thin, high-quality impact sound insulation layer between the floorboards and the joists. However, the floorboards should no longer be embedded at the edges into the plaster or wall, but rather left with a 1cm (0.4 inch) gap… This would likely reduce the sound most effectively before it can even spread… 🤨
It is an old village house, located far off the beaten path. Tenants can only be found here with very low rents… It’s an unfortunate situation for running service businesses without a reliable prospect of stable and secure rental income…
G
garfunkel14 Oct 2016 20:11Well, if the floor is firmly connected to the masonry, it could be a sound insulation issue. However, I find it surprising that there are no expansion joints, and I assume you have solid wood floorboards?
In a hard-soft-hard soundproofing system, the soft material should be as soft and heavy as possible. For drywall partitions, mineral wool is usually used for this purpose. The standard thickness is around 6cm (2.4 inches). Anything thinner is usually insufficient.
For flooring, I believe there are heavy, soft mats available. These would probably absorb the most sound. These are different from the usual 2mm (0.08 inch) plastic sheets that are commonly laid under laminate flooring.
As far as I know, a cement screed is poured onto the insulation mats. However, there is a foil layer between the cement and the mineral wool to prevent bonding. I am not entirely certain about this.
In any case, a cement screed would likely be too heavy for your wooden beam ceiling. I also doubt how much improvement it would bring. I wouldn’t recommend pursuing that option.
There is actually a specialized forum for houses that are as old or older than yours. Experienced members there deal with various issues and offer helpful advice. You will probably receive much better support in that forum.
Since I’m not sure if linking is allowed, just search Google for “fachwerk forum.”
Overall, you still don’t know if there’s really a major problem or if it’s just very sensitive tenants…
In a hard-soft-hard soundproofing system, the soft material should be as soft and heavy as possible. For drywall partitions, mineral wool is usually used for this purpose. The standard thickness is around 6cm (2.4 inches). Anything thinner is usually insufficient.
For flooring, I believe there are heavy, soft mats available. These would probably absorb the most sound. These are different from the usual 2mm (0.08 inch) plastic sheets that are commonly laid under laminate flooring.
As far as I know, a cement screed is poured onto the insulation mats. However, there is a foil layer between the cement and the mineral wool to prevent bonding. I am not entirely certain about this.
In any case, a cement screed would likely be too heavy for your wooden beam ceiling. I also doubt how much improvement it would bring. I wouldn’t recommend pursuing that option.
There is actually a specialized forum for houses that are as old or older than yours. Experienced members there deal with various issues and offer helpful advice. You will probably receive much better support in that forum.
Since I’m not sure if linking is allowed, just search Google for “fachwerk forum.”
Overall, you still don’t know if there’s really a major problem or if it’s just very sensitive tenants…
phi77 schrieb:
Once the notary and everything else is done, I will of course carefully inspect the rooms first To me, that sounds like a lot of "if" and "then." Buying a pig in a poke?
phi77 schrieb:
to install a thin, high-quality impact sound insulation layer between the floorboards and joists. What exactly do you mean by "thin and high-quality" impact sound insulation? Thickness? Dynamic stiffness? Maximum allowable surface pressure? And how do you ensure the (structural) sound bridge–free connection between the floorboards and joists? It’s not going to be floating, is it?
phi77 schrieb:
awkward situation for allowing service providers to work The awkward situation is something else. No one is talking about a service, but rather a consulting service. You can then implement the results yourself. But since you have shown complete resistance to advice so far, I’m done here. Soundproofing in old buildings is and remains no task for amateurs.
The offered "on-site consulting service" seems to me to be a service, and what I was initially looking for was some discussion and possibly shared experiences here on the forum. If that doesn’t seem possible, then what is the point of this forum?
I already mentioned, this is a house far out in the countryside, not a government building. Therefore, there is no need for premium soundproofing, and I am not going to remove any walls or ceiling joists. So, if I can’t raise the screed because of the ceiling height, and I don’t want or need to change the door frame height either, then in the end only one or two logical options remain...
If, ultimately, this only improves things by about 10-20%, then so be it. That’s all that will be done.
So why can’t the remaining solutions be openly discussed here? Is lifting and slightly underpinning the wooden floor really such a bad idea? With what other approach could I achieve a significantly better result for impact sound insulation?
I already mentioned, this is a house far out in the countryside, not a government building. Therefore, there is no need for premium soundproofing, and I am not going to remove any walls or ceiling joists. So, if I can’t raise the screed because of the ceiling height, and I don’t want or need to change the door frame height either, then in the end only one or two logical options remain...
If, ultimately, this only improves things by about 10-20%, then so be it. That’s all that will be done.
So why can’t the remaining solutions be openly discussed here? Is lifting and slightly underpinning the wooden floor really such a bad idea? With what other approach could I achieve a significantly better result for impact sound insulation?
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