Hello,
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
for our planned new build, I would like to automate as much as my budget allows. A central control system (touchscreen/app) for blinds, underfloor heating, and possibly indoor/outdoor lighting. Since I’m not familiar with this topic, I have two basic questions:
1). What approximate costs should I expect if about 170sqm (1,830 sqft) of living space including bathroom, toilet, hallway, 4 living rooms, and garage are to be automated? Of course, I understand you can’t give me an exact estimate.
2). How should I best approach my planning? Since I assume my budget won’t cover everything at once, I want to at least make all necessary preparations during construction. That way, I can add features later without having to open up walls. Sort of like preparing the roof for solar panels in advance…
Looking forward to your answers
For example, as long as there is no direct glare, I would keep the blinds up and instead use air conditioning. We will probably install a ground source heat exchanger for the mechanical ventilation system and an active underfloor cooling system. I’m not sure if that will be sufficient. But if it is enough, then I’d rather pay a few extra cents in electricity costs and have bright rooms instead of partly darkened ones. Since I work with venetian blinds every day and adjust them just so that there is barely any glare, I also know that venetian blinds significantly darken the room—at least from my perspective regarding natural light. My colleague often turns on artificial lighting as well. Natural light coming directly through the window is quite different in terms of room illumination compared to a tilted venetian blind. We have a huge window front, but with the venetian blinds down, it’s still quite dark. If no one is being dazzled at the moment, the blind goes up and the air conditioning turns on. However, regarding automation, you would actually need KNX (or equivalent) sensors on each person to detect glare. I don’t think such a system exists?
The exception, of course, is when no one is home. In that case, I would generally keep all the blinds down since darkness doesn’t bother anyone.
The exception, of course, is when no one is home. In that case, I would generally keep all the blinds down since darkness doesn’t bother anyone.
Grym schrieb:
What’s the worst that can happen if you forget to turn off the lights? How many watts does an LED consume in 12 hours?Nothing really, but there are people who want to make sure all lights are off when they leave the house...and then there are others who prefer to leave some lights on...people simply have different habits...
Grym schrieb:
And who has a moisture detector in the basement linked to the main shut-off valve? And what’s the point of KNX? It’s just a simple ‘if this, then that’ automation. I could rely on something proprietary for that.Safety-related installations often include such features...you could also use a proprietary system there...but then you would be taking a step back, and who really wants that?
Grym schrieb:
The comparison with the light sensor isn’t bad. I always have the light turn on automatically 5 seconds after ignition, even in August at noon with bright sunshine.That might be your approach...but it’s not mine and I don’t want that...the light should only come on when it’s actually needed.
Grym schrieb:
I think what matters for a car is the model, features like leather seats, or the engine power. Better an E-Class without a light sensor than a Golf with one.Then replace “Golf” in my example with “E-Class.” That model also comes in base and other trim levels.
Grym schrieb:
That other issue—on a car you don’t have to reprogram the light and rain sensors every few weeks. There’s a universal logic. For a single-family home, with individual day-to-day changing habits, it’s quite different.You’re completely missing the point there...
Saruss schrieb:
Otherwise, the car comparison is great— you have to buy an expensive package for rain and light sensors that includes lots of stuff you never need or use, the time saved is minimal, and sometimes the (light) rain sensor doesn’t work as expected, so you end up adjusting it manually and have to figure out how because it’s only an occasional thing, not a regular routine.With KNX you’re not forced to buy expensive packages...there’s always the option to assemble a custom system. With exactly the functions you want. This is partly because you can mix and match manufacturers and combine the functions that suit you best.
If you translate that to cars, it would be like:
Audi suspension + Mercedes body + Toyota electronics + Porsche interior + BMW engine
You simply pick the suitable devices from the 350 KNX manufacturers and connect them all via a single cable...and they all work perfectly together right away.
Saruss schrieb:
Otherwise, that’s not quite true, you still have to run a fair amount of wiring even just for lighting, and from what I read here you’d probably have to run a lot of “empty bus lines” into the rooms because retrofitting otherwise would be difficult.Wiring for lighting is simpler than with conventional systems. With KNX, in the simplest case, you only need a 3x1.5 NYM cable from the distribution panel to the fixture point...the bus line is installed everywhere anyway...conventional requires a junction box in the room and a switch.
The “empty bus line” I mentioned several times isn’t strictly necessary...you can prewire for it but you don’t have to...
Saruss schrieb:
And even if you’re not aware of it, you pay for a lot of functionality you don’t use yourself. I think the system, the bus, and the devices often have capabilities that are rarely fully used in a single-family house. So I would disagree with the idea “you only buy what you want.” But often it’s just not possible to get a fully custom product at a mass market price.No, as I said before, you don’t have to pay extra if you don’t want to...you can buy exactly the module with the required functionality...that’s the whole point...you’re not tied to one manufacturer and forced to pay for unnecessary extras...if you want more functions later, simply replace the device with a newer model with more features...often within the distribution box or flush-mounted device box, so there’s no need to open walls...even with KNX.
Grym schrieb:
There’s no bus technology installed in our office.And what’s that supposed to prove? One office among millions. Maybe your roller shutters would be more manageable for you with a little intelligence behind them...
Grym schrieb:
The range of variables is so broad that it wouldn’t be adequately automated.Yet it works very well with bus systems...ask around in the KNX user forum...there are plenty of people with automated roller shutters.
Grym schrieb:
Position transmitters on every person to detect glare? I don’t think that exists, right?Actually, that does exist.
But as Uwe82 already said...you have to experience it yourself...all the talking won’t help...
Mycraft, you did not understand my point about the costs associated with unused features. I don’t believe that even you (and most people even less so) use all the functions of the devices you buy, and the overhead of the entire KNX system is a cost you accept (just like with other automation systems). Apart from that, almost everyone here agrees that it is a comfort system (and largely a novelty) that has an advantage over other systems. Whether or not someone actually uses such a system is certainly a matter of personal preference, so this discussion will not lead to a conclusion.
Sent while on the move
Sent while on the move
Mycraft, a silent shareholder in one of the leading manufacturers of KNX components, but also obligated to maintain neutrality as a moderator. Please introduce us to three typical... truly typical (!) scenarios where KNX improves daily life.
I still don’t buy the idea of a soil moisture sensor connected to the main KNX shut-off valve as something realistic that more than five users in Germany would actually have installed.
But the comparison should go like this… use cases...
KNX user: I open my patio door. The exterior blinds automatically lift. (And a brief technical explanation of which sensors, switches, actuators, etc., make this work)
Standard user: I press the up button for the exterior blinds and open the balcony door manually.
Now let’s look for use cases where KNX saves more than just 0.6 seconds. Those certainly exist, but please illustrate it with concrete examples like a) how KNX does this and that and b) why a sensible (!) conventional control system still requires these additional manual button presses...
By the way, my main argument for controlled mechanical ventilation (around 10,000 EUR) is still that it saves me 20–60 minutes of manual airing per day. What can I get from KNX for 10,000 EUR, and is the payback also 20–60 minutes per day?
I still don’t buy the idea of a soil moisture sensor connected to the main KNX shut-off valve as something realistic that more than five users in Germany would actually have installed.
But the comparison should go like this… use cases...
KNX user: I open my patio door. The exterior blinds automatically lift. (And a brief technical explanation of which sensors, switches, actuators, etc., make this work)
Standard user: I press the up button for the exterior blinds and open the balcony door manually.
Now let’s look for use cases where KNX saves more than just 0.6 seconds. Those certainly exist, but please illustrate it with concrete examples like a) how KNX does this and that and b) why a sensible (!) conventional control system still requires these additional manual button presses...
By the way, my main argument for controlled mechanical ventilation (around 10,000 EUR) is still that it saves me 20–60 minutes of manual airing per day. What can I get from KNX for 10,000 EUR, and is the payback also 20–60 minutes per day?
@Saruss
But I understood you perfectly.
Example of switching actuators in my setup:
I have basic actuators that can only switch on/off and have staircase lighting function; these are completely sufficient for simple switching tasks.
I have actuators that can also handle logic functions.
And I have actuators with a bunch of additional features, such as power measurement—meaning the current flow is continuously monitored during operation, and depending on the level, different scenarios can be triggered.
The actuators had different prices depending on their functions... as you can see, you don’t have to pay for features you don’t use....
Of course, you have to pay for development and certification costs and the margin as well... but that applies even without a bus system.
But I understood you perfectly.
Example of switching actuators in my setup:
I have basic actuators that can only switch on/off and have staircase lighting function; these are completely sufficient for simple switching tasks.
I have actuators that can also handle logic functions.
And I have actuators with a bunch of additional features, such as power measurement—meaning the current flow is continuously monitored during operation, and depending on the level, different scenarios can be triggered.
The actuators had different prices depending on their functions... as you can see, you don’t have to pay for features you don’t use....
Of course, you have to pay for development and certification costs and the margin as well... but that applies even without a bus system.
Grym schrieb:
Mycraft, secret shareholder in one of the leading manufacturers of KNX components, but on the other hand also committed to neutrality as a moderator. Could you present three typical... really typical (!) scenarios where KNX improves life?No, I’m just convinced by the system...