Hello, we are still in the planning phase, and I would like to benefit from the experiences of those who have already been through this.
A very important point in our considerations is the kitchen. Almost all the design ideas and floor plans we find tend to feature rather small kitchens, open-plan, sometimes under 10 sqm (100 sq ft), with the dining area in the living room naturally being sufficiently large.
Personally, I’m not a fan of the open kitchen concept. I want a closed kitchen. Also, I want the option to have a dining table in the kitchen that can seat four people. The dining corner doesn’t have to be very large. However, I want the possibility to have breakfast in the kitchen so that I don’t end up with a messy living room every morning after eating with two small children.
But a kitchen of 10 sqm (100 sq ft) probably won’t be enough for this.
If you have a dining table in your kitchen, how big is it, and how large is your entire kitchen? I’m also happy to be inspired by photos.
Or am I overestimating the importance of being able to eat in the kitchen?
A very important point in our considerations is the kitchen. Almost all the design ideas and floor plans we find tend to feature rather small kitchens, open-plan, sometimes under 10 sqm (100 sq ft), with the dining area in the living room naturally being sufficiently large.
Personally, I’m not a fan of the open kitchen concept. I want a closed kitchen. Also, I want the option to have a dining table in the kitchen that can seat four people. The dining corner doesn’t have to be very large. However, I want the possibility to have breakfast in the kitchen so that I don’t end up with a messy living room every morning after eating with two small children.
But a kitchen of 10 sqm (100 sq ft) probably won’t be enough for this.
If you have a dining table in your kitchen, how big is it, and how large is your entire kitchen? I’m also happy to be inspired by photos.
Or am I overestimating the importance of being able to eat in the kitchen?
To me, this still isn’t fully developed. Having the guest room larger than the kitchen for a household of four is not acceptable. Both of my children always want to help out, so our 12m2 (130 sq ft) kitchen with an L-shaped layout and table feels far too cramped. In the new house, the kitchen area alone will be 20m2 (215 sq ft) and the guest room will be on the upper floor.
For me personally, it is difficult to estimate the required room size in advance.
The fact remains: the budget is limited, land is already very expensive here, and frankly, we simply cannot afford a 20 sqm (215 sq ft) kitchen and a 40 sqm (430 sq ft) living room... It’s just not possible. On the one hand, I find it quite overwhelming to invest half a million (including the land) and still end up with a house that apparently has "only" 20 compromises – that really depresses me. On the other hand, since a lottery win hasn’t happened yet, and paying over 1000 euros (about 1100 US dollars) in rent long-term is not an option, we will have to build according to what the budget allows... and that will not be a 20 sqm (215 sq ft) kitchen.
However, I don’t think we necessarily need that much space. My parents and friends have 18 sqm (194 sq ft). In both cases, with very different layouts, that seems very generous to me—there are large tables, and having that much space is nice, but I wouldn’t need more.
I see less of an issue with exactly how many square meters the 12 sqm (130 sq ft) kitchen has and more with the shape of the room. It would simply need to be wider.
The option of widening the house seems sensible to us. But the problem is that it’s difficult to only widen on the ground floor. Upstairs, all the rooms are sufficiently large, and what extra space we gain this way would be expensive and not really necessary.
We will discuss a bay window with the architects to make the living room a bit bigger if we expand the kitchen (guest room) by 3 sqm (32 sq ft) at the expense of the living room. The children will probably spend a long time playing in the living room, and that’s the one place where I don’t want to save too much space.
Another idea: we could use the original kitchen space as
A) a guest room.
B) extend the living room into that area and create a kind of play space for the little ones.
In theory, we could also use my office as a guest room. We don’t have guests very often, and a sofa bed could probably fit into 11 sqm (118 sq ft).
Or we reduce the kitchen from nearly 11 sqm (118 sq ft) down to about 7-8 sqm (75-86 sq ft)—which should be enough space for a kitchenette with a sofa bed—and give those 3 sqm (32 sq ft) to the living room. However, this would involve moving load-bearing walls...
But at the current cost per square meter, I’m increasingly reluctant to create an additional extra guest room. Overnight stays are just too rare to justify that.
There is also the option to move the staircase at the expense of the utility room and the bathroom upstairs. The bathroom could handle it, but I already find the utility room quite small for a house without a basement.
The fact remains: the budget is limited, land is already very expensive here, and frankly, we simply cannot afford a 20 sqm (215 sq ft) kitchen and a 40 sqm (430 sq ft) living room... It’s just not possible. On the one hand, I find it quite overwhelming to invest half a million (including the land) and still end up with a house that apparently has "only" 20 compromises – that really depresses me. On the other hand, since a lottery win hasn’t happened yet, and paying over 1000 euros (about 1100 US dollars) in rent long-term is not an option, we will have to build according to what the budget allows... and that will not be a 20 sqm (215 sq ft) kitchen.
However, I don’t think we necessarily need that much space. My parents and friends have 18 sqm (194 sq ft). In both cases, with very different layouts, that seems very generous to me—there are large tables, and having that much space is nice, but I wouldn’t need more.
I see less of an issue with exactly how many square meters the 12 sqm (130 sq ft) kitchen has and more with the shape of the room. It would simply need to be wider.
The option of widening the house seems sensible to us. But the problem is that it’s difficult to only widen on the ground floor. Upstairs, all the rooms are sufficiently large, and what extra space we gain this way would be expensive and not really necessary.
We will discuss a bay window with the architects to make the living room a bit bigger if we expand the kitchen (guest room) by 3 sqm (32 sq ft) at the expense of the living room. The children will probably spend a long time playing in the living room, and that’s the one place where I don’t want to save too much space.
Another idea: we could use the original kitchen space as
A) a guest room.
B) extend the living room into that area and create a kind of play space for the little ones.
In theory, we could also use my office as a guest room. We don’t have guests very often, and a sofa bed could probably fit into 11 sqm (118 sq ft).
Or we reduce the kitchen from nearly 11 sqm (118 sq ft) down to about 7-8 sqm (75-86 sq ft)—which should be enough space for a kitchenette with a sofa bed—and give those 3 sqm (32 sq ft) to the living room. However, this would involve moving load-bearing walls...
But at the current cost per square meter, I’m increasingly reluctant to create an additional extra guest room. Overnight stays are just too rare to justify that.
There is also the option to move the staircase at the expense of the utility room and the bathroom upstairs. The bathroom could handle it, but I already find the utility room quite small for a house without a basement.
Maybe a silly question, but have you tried using graph paper with millimeter (mm) markings, drawing the room layout, cutting out the furniture shapes, and testing the arrangement? This way, you can quickly see whether what you want will actually fit or if the room just ends up being full of furniture without much else.
Alternatively, there are plenty of free online tools that allow you to create layouts and even visualize them in 3D.
Alternatively, there are plenty of free online tools that allow you to create layouts and even visualize them in 3D.
The question is not silly at all — no, I haven’t done that yet. I haven’t bought a kitchen or a bistro table, so I can only roughly estimate how large each piece of furniture could theoretically be. But I also don’t know the dimensions and swing clearances of the doors. I think we will need to discuss this again with an architect.
But can you recommend a tool for that?
But can you recommend a tool for that?
Mizit schrieb:
haven’t bought a kitchen yetA kitchen usually has the same depth, and if you roughly know what the kitchen should look like, it’s quite easy.
Mizit schrieb:
don’t have a bistro table yetI would focus on what I want, not what is theoretically possible (about compromises).
Mizit schrieb:
also don’t know the sizes and swing zones of the doors*ahem* well, standard doors always open the same way. For the kitchen, it will be either 90 cm or 100 cm (clear width lintel/door width 86 or 96). So that’s nothing complicated.
Mizit schrieb:
But can you recommend a tool for that?I would really recommend starting with the manual method. That way you can also sketch your plot, your house, your terrace, and position all of that on the plot. There are many tools available, and it also depends a lot on your skills (examples: Home by me or SweetHome3D).
A few additional comments on other things I came across while reading:
Sliding door: this should then be an internal pocket door (sliding inside the wall), which becomes quite expensive if you want it to look good.
Open kitchen: as mentioned several times, as soon as there is at least one more guest, you end up sitting in the living room anyway and have to go around (I don’t remember the layout of your core house). We currently have a completely open kitchen-dining-living area in our apartment. I wouldn’t want to miss that. When cooking, you have the child in view and take part in what’s going on when guests are there. You don’t have to keep walking somewhere for drinks. And beyond that, how small are the children? Do you want to carry the child chairs around each time and maybe risk damaging the walls?
Sorry, but when I read your post, I wonder why you keep focusing so much on square meter measurements. Of course, they are helpful as a rough guideline, but it seems like you’re convinced there must be a certain "amount" of square meters to be adequate.
Square meters aren’t everything; they only really make sense if you can properly furnish the space. I’ve experienced this myself during our planning: a children’s room with 12m² (130 sq ft) was easier to furnish than one with the same layout but 15m² (161 sq ft). The only difference was that the smaller room had space for a wardrobe behind the door, which wasn’t possible in the larger room.
These kinds of details matter in planning, not whether a room is 15, 18, or 20m² (161, 194, or 215 sq ft). What’s the use of a kitchen that’s 20m² (215 sq ft) if you keep walking long distances between work areas?
I strongly recommend you don’t get hung up on the square meters.
Instead, approach it differently and try to develop a sense of space based on the furniture you need. For example, a table measuring 2x1m (6.6x3.3 ft) with six chairs (two on the long sides and one at each end) alone requires 3.60x2.20m (12x7.2 ft).
If it’s just five chairs and the table is placed against the wall with one short side, the space needed is about 2.80x2.20m (9.2x7.2 ft). The 2.20m (7.2 ft) allows enough room to comfortably walk behind someone sitting in a chair. If there’s a bench along one long side against the wall, less space is needed accordingly.
Just try searching online for "table factory room size guide." It helped me a lot.
Square meters aren’t everything; they only really make sense if you can properly furnish the space. I’ve experienced this myself during our planning: a children’s room with 12m² (130 sq ft) was easier to furnish than one with the same layout but 15m² (161 sq ft). The only difference was that the smaller room had space for a wardrobe behind the door, which wasn’t possible in the larger room.
These kinds of details matter in planning, not whether a room is 15, 18, or 20m² (161, 194, or 215 sq ft). What’s the use of a kitchen that’s 20m² (215 sq ft) if you keep walking long distances between work areas?
I strongly recommend you don’t get hung up on the square meters.
Instead, approach it differently and try to develop a sense of space based on the furniture you need. For example, a table measuring 2x1m (6.6x3.3 ft) with six chairs (two on the long sides and one at each end) alone requires 3.60x2.20m (12x7.2 ft).
If it’s just five chairs and the table is placed against the wall with one short side, the space needed is about 2.80x2.20m (9.2x7.2 ft). The 2.20m (7.2 ft) allows enough room to comfortably walk behind someone sitting in a chair. If there’s a bench along one long side against the wall, less space is needed accordingly.
Just try searching online for "table factory room size guide." It helped me a lot.
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