Hi,
I’m still undecided about installing home automation in our planned new build.
My requirements are as follows:
- Control of roller shutters or blinds (possibly window contacts to detect open windows)
- Control of heating / air source heat pump or solar system
- Control of a video intercom system via a tablet
Of course, I have looked into KNX and the material costs alone would be around 6000€ (approximately 6,350 USD). As an alternative, Loxone is mentioned increasingly often, although the proprietary format is a bit off-putting.
My requirements could also be met with a manufacturer-specific system.
Do you have any recommendations for or against home automation (in my case)?
Best regards
Acd85
I’m still undecided about installing home automation in our planned new build.
My requirements are as follows:
- Control of roller shutters or blinds (possibly window contacts to detect open windows)
- Control of heating / air source heat pump or solar system
- Control of a video intercom system via a tablet
Of course, I have looked into KNX and the material costs alone would be around 6000€ (approximately 6,350 USD). As an alternative, Loxone is mentioned increasingly often, although the proprietary format is a bit off-putting.
My requirements could also be met with a manufacturer-specific system.
Do you have any recommendations for or against home automation (in my case)?
Best regards
Acd85
@Mycraft: Maybe you shouldn’t just pick quotes that fit your argument, but read the entire text. I said either buy it expensive or build it yourself, and that’s exactly the alternative you presented...
And sorry, but the logic functions of most KNX components are not really sufficient if you want to link multiple conditions, such as time periods depending on weather and group address status. Also, the software of each component differs slightly, not every switch, for example, can differentiate between pressing and releasing. (Please don’t reduce this to just that argument; it was just a small example).
KNX is not a miracle solution or the answer to all problems. KNX is a platform that I can work with. Which devices you use depends on your own requirements and especially the software the manufacturer provides. And there simply isn’t real consistency here, unlike alternative solutions like Loxone. One interface for all components with integrated help and many examples. With KNX, informing yourself still means downloading product databases and the respective manufacturer’s component descriptions and studying dozens of pages to see if it can do what you want. That’s not for everyone.
And sorry, but the logic functions of most KNX components are not really sufficient if you want to link multiple conditions, such as time periods depending on weather and group address status. Also, the software of each component differs slightly, not every switch, for example, can differentiate between pressing and releasing. (Please don’t reduce this to just that argument; it was just a small example).
KNX is not a miracle solution or the answer to all problems. KNX is a platform that I can work with. Which devices you use depends on your own requirements and especially the software the manufacturer provides. And there simply isn’t real consistency here, unlike alternative solutions like Loxone. One interface for all components with integrated help and many examples. With KNX, informing yourself still means downloading product databases and the respective manufacturer’s component descriptions and studying dozens of pages to see if it can do what you want. That’s not for everyone.
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bennithebrain8 Apr 2016 13:19@Mycraft I have to completely agree with Uwe82 here. Everyone should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to work with KNX, Loxone, or any other system. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages, and there is no need for turf wars. It’s actually great that Loxone can take advantage of KNX’s strengths. For example, I don’t plan to do that myself, but some people combine the best of both worlds and integrate them very well.
But some see it purely as a philosophical debate, like "Apple vs. Microsoft," "Windows vs. Linux," or "BMW vs. VW," and so on...
For me personally, KNX was too expensive and really too complex as a beginner. Once you get the hang of it, though, it’s an excellent system! I just find Loxone much easier to manage. By the way, the same goes for Microsoft.
But some see it purely as a philosophical debate, like "Apple vs. Microsoft," "Windows vs. Linux," or "BMW vs. VW," and so on...
For me personally, KNX was too expensive and really too complex as a beginner. Once you get the hang of it, though, it’s an excellent system! I just find Loxone much easier to manage. By the way, the same goes for Microsoft.
Wow, a lot has happened here in the last couple of days—I can hardly keep up with reading everything... But I still want to share my thoughts.
A brief introduction first. We are building with KNX at a high level of expansion, meaning with a home server, Gira Control 19 touch panels, and so on. Despite some opposing comments, I believe home automation can be implemented more cost-effectively with Loxone. Anyone who has purchased a home server and a touch panel will understand what I mean. Visualization is simply part of the basic package with Loxone, which unfortunately is not the case with KNX. Nevertheless, we decided on KNX, especially because of its decentralized structure.
I think the benefits of a bus system cannot really be shown in purely financial terms. The only real cost advantage, in my opinion, is the alarm system, which can be relatively easily implemented with motion detectors and door/window contacts. Another advantage I see is the individual room control of the heating, which saves a significant amount of money in the heating room.
Everything else, financially speaking, is, in my opinion, not justifiable. Installing motion detectors to make sure the lights turn off or having an indicator showing if a light is still on when you leave the house—considering today’s LED light sources, it’s not worth mentioning. Shutters that close in winter to save just a few cents on heating costs! I find it unfortunate that these things are always mentioned in presentations! KNX as a COST SAVING POSSIBILITY... Realistically, it is quite expensive to purchase.
I see it more as a comfort gain. Anyone who has lived in a house or apartment with lighting scenes won’t want to do without them. In pictures, it often looks like a nightclub, but in reality, it’s just wonderful! Automatically controlling shutters and not having to worry about it anymore. Accessing music via a multiroom audio system, no matter where you are. When I walk to the bathroom at night, a dim indirect light turns on automatically, not a bright LED spotlight that completely wakes me up. We will have no switches in many rooms (hallways, toilets, pantry...), which I find very nice, and so on.
Let’s compare it to windows. What’s the point of floor-to-ceiling glazing or large windows? They cost a lot and result in significant heat loss. What’s the point of a large TV? There are many examples like that.
Everyone has their own budget when building a house. For example, we are building about 200 square meters (2,150 square feet) and are definitely spending more money on it than some people do for 300 square meters (3,230 square feet) of living space. I personally prefer home automation over a 30 square meter (320 square foot) larger living room. Everyone thinks differently and sets different priorities.
A brief introduction first. We are building with KNX at a high level of expansion, meaning with a home server, Gira Control 19 touch panels, and so on. Despite some opposing comments, I believe home automation can be implemented more cost-effectively with Loxone. Anyone who has purchased a home server and a touch panel will understand what I mean. Visualization is simply part of the basic package with Loxone, which unfortunately is not the case with KNX. Nevertheless, we decided on KNX, especially because of its decentralized structure.
I think the benefits of a bus system cannot really be shown in purely financial terms. The only real cost advantage, in my opinion, is the alarm system, which can be relatively easily implemented with motion detectors and door/window contacts. Another advantage I see is the individual room control of the heating, which saves a significant amount of money in the heating room.
Everything else, financially speaking, is, in my opinion, not justifiable. Installing motion detectors to make sure the lights turn off or having an indicator showing if a light is still on when you leave the house—considering today’s LED light sources, it’s not worth mentioning. Shutters that close in winter to save just a few cents on heating costs! I find it unfortunate that these things are always mentioned in presentations! KNX as a COST SAVING POSSIBILITY... Realistically, it is quite expensive to purchase.
I see it more as a comfort gain. Anyone who has lived in a house or apartment with lighting scenes won’t want to do without them. In pictures, it often looks like a nightclub, but in reality, it’s just wonderful! Automatically controlling shutters and not having to worry about it anymore. Accessing music via a multiroom audio system, no matter where you are. When I walk to the bathroom at night, a dim indirect light turns on automatically, not a bright LED spotlight that completely wakes me up. We will have no switches in many rooms (hallways, toilets, pantry...), which I find very nice, and so on.
Let’s compare it to windows. What’s the point of floor-to-ceiling glazing or large windows? They cost a lot and result in significant heat loss. What’s the point of a large TV? There are many examples like that.
Everyone has their own budget when building a house. For example, we are building about 200 square meters (2,150 square feet) and are definitely spending more money on it than some people do for 300 square meters (3,230 square feet) of living space. I personally prefer home automation over a 30 square meter (320 square foot) larger living room. Everyone thinks differently and sets different priorities.
PhiTh schrieb:
KNX as a COST SAVING OPTION... Realistically, it is already quite expensive to install.That's right, it doesn’t save money, and it doesn’t effectively save time in a single-family house either. Let’s be honest, how much time do you actually save by automating the blinds? It never outweighs the time spent on learning the logic and setup, so financially it doesn’t add up either.However, it satisfies the homeowner’s playful interest and may possibly provide added comfort and maybe even some increased security (“alarm system”), but from a purely financial perspective, you will never make back the investment.
Conclusion: Either you want it because you want to have it and “play” with it, or you don’t, and then you just leave it and let the electrician do the conventional work.
Uwe82 schrieb:
Maybe you shouldn’t only pick quotes that support your argument but read the entire text. I said either buy expensive additional logic or build it yourself, and that’s exactly the alternative you presented...Unlike you, I did read what you wrote and didn’t quote the entire text but simply addressed the core questions for clarity... and I wrote exactly the opposite, saying that you don’t have to buy ready-made logic at a high price, but rather get it at the same cost as, for example, with Loxone...
I also cannot agree that the built-in logic of KNX components is not sufficient. Apparently, you only know outdated devices that allow only simple links.
Mycraft schrieb:
Unlike you, I actually read what you wrote and didn’t quote the entire text, but simply answered the key questions... and I wrote exactly the opposite, namely that you don’t have to buy ready-made logic at a high price, but can get it for the same price as, for example, Loxone...First, you only addressed the first part of my sentence ("have to buy it at a high price") and ignored the other part ("or have to tinker with it").Second, the HomeServer was only given as an example, which is why I wrote "e.g."
Third, the EibPC with visualization costs over €600 (about $650) without the IP gateway, which is also needed, making it significantly more expensive and ultimately more of a DIY solution with a much steeper learning curve for beginners. Wiregate is also not exactly cheap, and as far as I know, it mostly provides visualization without extensive logic functions (otherwise please correct me, I’m uninformed and using devices from the past, bought only a few months ago).
Have you taken a closer look at Loxone or other PLC systems at all?