What do you think: Are the pipes spaced close enough here?
Stone wall 55cm (21.7 inches) + 5cm (2 inches) Haga insulating plaster
Old windows
Room height 2.85m (9.35 feet)
Floor insulated with 12cm (4.7 inches) EPS + 3cm (1.2 inches) impact sound insulation
Underfloor heating embedded in 5.5–6cm (2.2–2.4 inches) anhydrite screed, with approximately another 3cm (1.2 inches) on top for cement tiles, parquet, or resin floors
Supply temperature max. 28°C (82°F)
6 zones
Guide line spacing on insulation: 5cm (2 inches)
Thanks for your opinion!
Stone wall 55cm (21.7 inches) + 5cm (2 inches) Haga insulating plaster
Old windows
Room height 2.85m (9.35 feet)
Floor insulated with 12cm (4.7 inches) EPS + 3cm (1.2 inches) impact sound insulation
Underfloor heating embedded in 5.5–6cm (2.2–2.4 inches) anhydrite screed, with approximately another 3cm (1.2 inches) on top for cement tiles, parquet, or resin floors
Supply temperature max. 28°C (82°F)
6 zones
Guide line spacing on insulation: 5cm (2 inches)
Thanks for your opinion!
N
nordanney10 Nov 2015 21:44They seem spaced too far apart to be able to heat the room with a 28°C (82°F) supply temperature (compared to our new build, where they were installed much closer together).
Thank you all for your answers. Tomorrow morning the heating engineer will come again. I will ask him if any calculations have been done. But I don’t really believe it.
@Wastl: The two smaller rooms are arranged more compactly.. :-)
@BeHaElJa: The maximum supply temperature of 28° Celsius (82°F) comes from the specifications of the cement tile manufacturer. It could otherwise have been set quite a bit higher. What do you mean by:
“It is about supply temperature at design load (so it becomes relevant maybe once every 10 years)”?
An earth probe heat pump is installed, and its capacity has been calculated. Of course, I expect some savings compared to before through the additional insulation. I would appreciate a calculation: Floor: 9.35 x 6.85 meters (31 x 22.5 feet) = 64 m² (690 ft²), Walls: 54 cm (21 inches) rubble stone + 4 cm (1.5 inches) Haga insulation plaster (not yet specified, U-value unknown), height 2.85 m (9.35 ft), of which towards the outside (minus windows): 48.3 m² (520 ft²)... and towards an adjacent room (10°C / 50°F): 19.5 m² (210 ft²).
Windows and doors are single glazed, about 3 mm (0.12 inches) thick with secondary glazing (which performed surprisingly well in the thermal imaging): 14.5 m² (156 ft²).
Ceiling “reed gypsum” 64 m² (690 ft²). Installation spacing is 15-25 cm (6-10 inches), on average probably 20 cm (8 inches). I’m curious and thankful for any “calculated” input :-) Do you need any more data?
@Musketier: No, that simply isn’t possible with this property..
@EveundGerd: It is quite possible that the windows are from 1944.
@Wastl: The two smaller rooms are arranged more compactly.. :-)
@BeHaElJa: The maximum supply temperature of 28° Celsius (82°F) comes from the specifications of the cement tile manufacturer. It could otherwise have been set quite a bit higher. What do you mean by:
“It is about supply temperature at design load (so it becomes relevant maybe once every 10 years)”?
An earth probe heat pump is installed, and its capacity has been calculated. Of course, I expect some savings compared to before through the additional insulation. I would appreciate a calculation: Floor: 9.35 x 6.85 meters (31 x 22.5 feet) = 64 m² (690 ft²), Walls: 54 cm (21 inches) rubble stone + 4 cm (1.5 inches) Haga insulation plaster (not yet specified, U-value unknown), height 2.85 m (9.35 ft), of which towards the outside (minus windows): 48.3 m² (520 ft²)... and towards an adjacent room (10°C / 50°F): 19.5 m² (210 ft²).
Windows and doors are single glazed, about 3 mm (0.12 inches) thick with secondary glazing (which performed surprisingly well in the thermal imaging): 14.5 m² (156 ft²).
Ceiling “reed gypsum” 64 m² (690 ft²). Installation spacing is 15-25 cm (6-10 inches), on average probably 20 cm (8 inches). I’m curious and thankful for any “calculated” input :-) Do you need any more data?
@Musketier: No, that simply isn’t possible with this property..
@EveundGerd: It is quite possible that the windows are from 1944.
B
Bauexperte10 Nov 2015 22:22SirSydom schrieb:
There’s no such thing as free cheese except in a mousetrap. Egg thief 😀
SCNR
Regards, Bauexperte
SirSydom schrieb:
There’s no such thing as a free lunch. But only for the second mouse. 😀
First of all: I am an amateur, not a professional.
You perform the heating calculation based on the design temperature—that is, the amount of heat loss per unit of time that must be compensated for when it is really cold outside. Assuming your exterior wall is made of rubble granite, it has a U-value of 0.93 W/m²K.
Your floor loses 0.22 W/m²K (assuming the installed EPS insulation has a thermal conductivity of 0.035 W/mK).
For the windows, I simply assume an optimistic 1.3 W/m²K.
So the total heat loss, assuming the design temperature is –14°C (7°F) and the indoor temperature is 20°C (68°F), is:
0.93 W/m²K * 34 K * 48.3 m² (519.9 ft²) = 1527 W (to outside air)
0.93 W/m²K * 10 K * 19.5 m² (209.9 ft²) = 181 W (to adjacent room)
1.3 W/m²K * 34 K * 14.5 m² (156.1 ft²) = 641 W (windows)
0.22 W/m²K * 20 K * 64 m² (688.9 ft²) = 282 W (floor)
Total: 2631 W... now I’m not sure what’s above this room... you mention it is a reed gypsum ceiling? Is it insulated, or are there regular rooms above it?
If we exclude the ceiling, you need 2631 W of heating power, which must be compensated by the underfloor heating. Are you installing hardwood flooring? Then at 28°C (82°F) supply temperature, the output is around 19 W/m² (1.8 W/ft²)—a maximum of 1235 W. If you install tiles, it is about 23 W/m² (2.1 W/ft²)—so 1472 W.
If you increase the supply temperature to 35°C (95°F), the output rises to 37 W/m² (3.4 W/ft²) and 44 W/m² (4.1 W/ft²)—which equals 2368 W and 2816 W respectively.
Reducing pipe spacing could provide about 10% more output per square meter (at 35°C, about 40 W/m² or 50 W/m²—so not a huge difference).
This calculation does not include ventilation losses or thermal bridges... you could add another 30% heat loss capacity here (or even more).
Conclusion? If it really gets cold, you will have significant problems unless you provide additional heating or insulate your walls. I would consider adding about 10 cm (4 inches) of external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) instead of just 4 cm (1.5 inches) of thermal plaster, which could reduce heat loss by roughly 1000 W.
You perform the heating calculation based on the design temperature—that is, the amount of heat loss per unit of time that must be compensated for when it is really cold outside. Assuming your exterior wall is made of rubble granite, it has a U-value of 0.93 W/m²K.
Your floor loses 0.22 W/m²K (assuming the installed EPS insulation has a thermal conductivity of 0.035 W/mK).
For the windows, I simply assume an optimistic 1.3 W/m²K.
So the total heat loss, assuming the design temperature is –14°C (7°F) and the indoor temperature is 20°C (68°F), is:
0.93 W/m²K * 34 K * 48.3 m² (519.9 ft²) = 1527 W (to outside air)
0.93 W/m²K * 10 K * 19.5 m² (209.9 ft²) = 181 W (to adjacent room)
1.3 W/m²K * 34 K * 14.5 m² (156.1 ft²) = 641 W (windows)
0.22 W/m²K * 20 K * 64 m² (688.9 ft²) = 282 W (floor)
Total: 2631 W... now I’m not sure what’s above this room... you mention it is a reed gypsum ceiling? Is it insulated, or are there regular rooms above it?
If we exclude the ceiling, you need 2631 W of heating power, which must be compensated by the underfloor heating. Are you installing hardwood flooring? Then at 28°C (82°F) supply temperature, the output is around 19 W/m² (1.8 W/ft²)—a maximum of 1235 W. If you install tiles, it is about 23 W/m² (2.1 W/ft²)—so 1472 W.
If you increase the supply temperature to 35°C (95°F), the output rises to 37 W/m² (3.4 W/ft²) and 44 W/m² (4.1 W/ft²)—which equals 2368 W and 2816 W respectively.
Reducing pipe spacing could provide about 10% more output per square meter (at 35°C, about 40 W/m² or 50 W/m²—so not a huge difference).
This calculation does not include ventilation losses or thermal bridges... you could add another 30% heat loss capacity here (or even more).
Conclusion? If it really gets cold, you will have significant problems unless you provide additional heating or insulate your walls. I would consider adding about 10 cm (4 inches) of external thermal insulation composite system (ETICS) instead of just 4 cm (1.5 inches) of thermal plaster, which could reduce heat loss by roughly 1000 W.
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